looking for some bullets that I can use for hunting in my Marlin 45-70 lever,i reload ,maybe cast bullets ?where to buy?Maybe start making my own would need a favorite mold # and recipes .Thanks guys any help will be appreciated
Recomandations 45-70
- Thread starter bbobie
- Start date
First thing you need to do is lug your barrel to determine groove diameter. Bet on needing to go .002" larger with cast boolits over groove diameter. Is your Marlin microgroove or normal "ballard" rifling? Also what's your intended purpose for the cast boolits? Plinking, deer hunting, big bears? That will help us recommend suitable molds, bullet styles and profiles.
The manual doesn't often say. It will usually say on the side of the barrel where the trademark is if it's Micro Groove. If it doesn't say it's a Micro Groove, it's probably not. Check the number of lands/grooves in the barrel as well. Micro Groove has a much higher number. A 45-70 barrel will usually have around 6-7 lands and grooves if it has traditional rifling (Ballard rifling). If there are 10-11+ it is likely Micro Groove. If it's recent production rifle it will be Ballard as Marlin stopped making 45-70 barrels with Micro Groove rifling a few years ago.
There are two schools of thought for cast bullets. Some use hard cast bullets and rely on the .458" diameter to create a roughly half-inch wound channel. Others prefer softer lead bullets which will expand and create a larger wound channel. Either will work if you have good shot placement but the softer bullets gives more margin for error. The harder bullets will penetrate and shatter bones better for tougher game like large bears or dangerous game. Black bears, elk, and deer don't really fall into this category so either will work depending on your preference.
Some people say a 45-70 is a 75 yard rifle but they are excellent to at least 200yds if you know your drop and can make the shot. My Guide Gun only has peep sights and my eyes suck so I wouldn't use mine past 100yds.
You have a velocity limit with cast bullets. It ranges from 1500-1800fps with plain bullets and 1700-2500 with gas checked bullets (copper cup on the base). After that it isn't dangerous but you are likely to get lead buildup in your barrel which is a pain to clean. The leading will often cause greatly reduced accuracy. A .458" bullet of at least 300gr going at as little as 1200-1500fps will take anything in North America so you don't need a steam train load to do the job you outlined. A common favourite is the 405gr bullets since that was one of the original weights used in the 45-70.
I haven't taken any game with a 45-70 yet but my Guide Gun will shoot almost anything fairly accurately. I run the Lee 340gr plain base and a custom 400gr .450" bullet I paper patch up to .460" which would work well as a soft lead bullet for expansion. I don't shoot too much heavy lead in my Guide Gun since I also have an H&R Buffalo Classic single-shot that gets the 500gr heavy weights.
I would recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It has a wealth of information on the peculiarities of loading and shooting cast bullets since they do differ from jacketed bullets in both regards. It also has a lot of load data using many non-rifle powders for a wide variety of velocities. A load that shoots well in one Marlin might not shoot well in another made at a different time or on a different machine in the same factory. Personally I like H4198 loads for mid-velocity (~1300fps), H4895 for high-velocity (~2000fps), and Trail Boss for low-velocity (~1000fps). A 340-400gr bullet going at 1000fps will take deer very easily at ranges under 100yds; many people have done this.
There are two schools of thought for cast bullets. Some use hard cast bullets and rely on the .458" diameter to create a roughly half-inch wound channel. Others prefer softer lead bullets which will expand and create a larger wound channel. Either will work if you have good shot placement but the softer bullets gives more margin for error. The harder bullets will penetrate and shatter bones better for tougher game like large bears or dangerous game. Black bears, elk, and deer don't really fall into this category so either will work depending on your preference.
Some people say a 45-70 is a 75 yard rifle but they are excellent to at least 200yds if you know your drop and can make the shot. My Guide Gun only has peep sights and my eyes suck so I wouldn't use mine past 100yds.
You have a velocity limit with cast bullets. It ranges from 1500-1800fps with plain bullets and 1700-2500 with gas checked bullets (copper cup on the base). After that it isn't dangerous but you are likely to get lead buildup in your barrel which is a pain to clean. The leading will often cause greatly reduced accuracy. A .458" bullet of at least 300gr going at as little as 1200-1500fps will take anything in North America so you don't need a steam train load to do the job you outlined. A common favourite is the 405gr bullets since that was one of the original weights used in the 45-70.
I haven't taken any game with a 45-70 yet but my Guide Gun will shoot almost anything fairly accurately. I run the Lee 340gr plain base and a custom 400gr .450" bullet I paper patch up to .460" which would work well as a soft lead bullet for expansion. I don't shoot too much heavy lead in my Guide Gun since I also have an H&R Buffalo Classic single-shot that gets the 500gr heavy weights.
I would recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. It has a wealth of information on the peculiarities of loading and shooting cast bullets since they do differ from jacketed bullets in both regards. It also has a lot of load data using many non-rifle powders for a wide variety of velocities. A load that shoots well in one Marlin might not shoot well in another made at a different time or on a different machine in the same factory. Personally I like H4198 loads for mid-velocity (~1300fps), H4895 for high-velocity (~2000fps), and Trail Boss for low-velocity (~1000fps). A 340-400gr bullet going at 1000fps will take deer very easily at ranges under 100yds; many people have done this.
Bassmaster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- WMU 48 - Whitetail country
I have 3 45/70 molds but my favorite is the lyman 457193....classic boolit
Forgot to mention some common places for precast bullets. You can contact the user Jethunter here on CGN, go to the Bullet Barn website, or various other casters. Here in Ontario there is an outfit called R&R bullets but shipping to Alberta could be a deal breaker. Budget Shooter Supply also has Missouri bullets but only in 405gr plain base and I'm not sure what the hardness is; still probably very good bullets.
The main concerns with shooting cast are:
-Matching the bullet size to your barrel. You usually want .001" to .002" larger than your groove diameter and groove diameters vary between rifles from the same factory so slugging your bore is the best bet. Many modern 45-70's are around .457"
-Staying below the velocity limit. These limits are effected by barrel condition, twist rate, rifling type, bullet hardness, gas check or plain base, pressure produced, flame temperature of powder used, bullet lube type, and several other things. It's a trial-and-error process with each rifle if you're looking for the maximum velocity. In a rifle with crisp bore with no pitting, traditional rifling, and a medium to high hardness bullet with proper lube and good fit (see above), 1500-1700fps is pretty much guaranteed to work with plain base bullets.
-Making sure you flare your case mouths enough so the cases don't shave your bullets as they're seated. If this happens you'll find fine crescent shaped pieces of lead in the die. You want to be able to start the first 1/16" to 1/8" of the bullet with your fingers.
The main concerns with shooting cast are:
-Matching the bullet size to your barrel. You usually want .001" to .002" larger than your groove diameter and groove diameters vary between rifles from the same factory so slugging your bore is the best bet. Many modern 45-70's are around .457"
-Staying below the velocity limit. These limits are effected by barrel condition, twist rate, rifling type, bullet hardness, gas check or plain base, pressure produced, flame temperature of powder used, bullet lube type, and several other things. It's a trial-and-error process with each rifle if you're looking for the maximum velocity. In a rifle with crisp bore with no pitting, traditional rifling, and a medium to high hardness bullet with proper lube and good fit (see above), 1500-1700fps is pretty much guaranteed to work with plain base bullets.
-Making sure you flare your case mouths enough so the cases don't shave your bullets as they're seated. If this happens you'll find fine crescent shaped pieces of lead in the die. You want to be able to start the first 1/16" to 1/8" of the bullet with your fingers.
Though the Lyman 457193 is a great 45 caliber bullet, its use is problematic in a lever rifle like your Marlin. Why? It has no crimp groove. These bullets were originally designed so that the case mouth crimps over the bullet's front driving band. Not a problem with the compressed black powder charges these bullets were originally used with, as bullet setback was nonexistent. But, when used with modern smokeless powder to less than 100% load density, that possibility does exist. A better, in my opinion, choice for a 45 caliber cast bullet, would be Lyman's 457643 mold. This bullet mold was specifically designed for 1886 and similar Winchester lever rifles. That would include your 1895 Marlin. It does have a crimp groove. I use this bullet exclusively now in my own '86 Winchester (45-70) and it has proven to be a good performer. Cast from wheelweight lead, this bullet weighs about 415 grains. Overall cartridge length will run about 4.500", which should function fine in your Marlin.
Bassmaster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- WMU 48 - Whitetail country
Baaa...I never considered this in my response, you are correct with respect to the '193. I did trim my brass so I could use the top lube groove as a crimp groove.....feeds fine in my 1895.
Bassmaster: I am a fan of the '193 mold, too. Have used it extensively in both single shot and lever action rifles...found it to be a top performer. Never had any problems with it. But....always had to carefully consider powder choices though, to make the most of case capacity and to avoid setback problems. I expect you do too. As a matter of interest, if you look at Remington factory ammo (405 grain jacketed bullet), the Remington slug also crimps in the same way. There is a bit of a shoulder at the point where the bullet shank drops down to the start of the ogive. The case mouth crimps over this shoulder. I've never seen one of these cartridges have any problems with set back...so the bullet design does work. I just think the '643 mold offers a bullet which is much easier to work with. The Lee 340 grain bullet works very well, too. Have seen it take down more than a few deer and bear. A pal of mine uses it a lot in his Marlin 1895, with good success. Another good choice is the 330-grain Gould hollowpoint mold, also by Lyman.
Bassmaster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- WMU 48 - Whitetail country
I can't comment on Bullet Barn, I cast my own, but have heard lots of good reviews.
It's been mentioned.....run a soft lead slug through your bore, measure it and order your bullets +.002 over that size.
LUTNIT and Alex McK have given lots of good advice.
To bad you weren't around the Valley....I can't get anybody to go out and shoot the 45's any more...(Marlin & Ruger 1)
It's been mentioned.....run a soft lead slug through your bore, measure it and order your bullets +.002 over that size.
LUTNIT and Alex McK have given lots of good advice.
To bad you weren't around the Valley....I can't get anybody to go out and shoot the 45's any more...(Marlin & Ruger 1)
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bbobie: I can't comment on Bullet Barn either, as I always cast my own, as well. One thing to consider if you are ordering bulk bullets, is the shipping cost. That could get prohibitive. I understand it could be a hassle at times scrounging lead, etc. Plus, you'd like to get shooting right away. But, lead sources aren't that hard to find. Sometimes, all it takes is asking for scrap wheel weights at the local garage. Many times they are happy to give them away. It will be a whole lot cheaper for you too, both in the long and short term, to invest in a bullet mold or two, and cast your own. It isn't that difficult to learn how and requires a minimum of equipment. If you have a Coleman stove, cast iron pot and a ladle....you can cast bullets in your back yard. Throw in a bullet sizer/lubricator (Lyman makes a good one), and you can be turning out good quality bullets for your rifle in no time. There is a lot of satisfaction to be had by casting and shooting your own bullets, as well. The internet is full of resources on how to do just about anything.....including bullet casting, lube making, etc. This forum also offers a wealth of experience. Worth considering, regardless which way you decide to go.
so I ve been looking at wholesale here in leth they are not carrying and lyman bullet molds .They have a lot of lee stuff looks like I can get going for relatively cheap.
So what do I need to to SLUG my barrel ,there was a suggestion to push a soft bullet threw the barrel isn't this hard ? I don't know that's why im asking
My son works at a tire shop and says he has a pail of old wheel weights ill be getting it tomorrow
Thanks guys
So what do I need to to SLUG my barrel ,there was a suggestion to push a soft bullet threw the barrel isn't this hard ? I don't know that's why im asking
My son works at a tire shop and says he has a pail of old wheel weights ill be getting it tomorrow
Thanks guys
I've used hard cast bullets to slug a barrel and it needs a steel rod to pound it through; wooden dowels just splintered. I prefer to use soft lead balls for muzzle loaders as I can tap it through with wood dowels. Even a hard cast round ball will be easier to push through because they have such less surface engagement than bullets. For muzzle loaders, round balls are commonly available in .32, .44, .45, and .50 cal. For a 45-70 you may need to use a .50 to make sure it gets all the way to the bottom of the grooves since .45 cal muzzle loaders are .452" like pistol cartridges, not .458" like cartridge rifles. For 45-70 barrels I cast my own .460" round balls for light loads so just use those for slugging as well.
To be honest, since the rifle is new, I'd just try some .458" or .459" cast and check for leading. Most new rifles are around .457". Slugging will tell you for sure but my last two 45-70's (H&R and Marlin) were both around .4575" from the factory. When you measure the slug, at a minimum check your calipers against something known like a factory bullet to make sure it gives a true reading. Ideally you want to use a micrometer to measure bullets since we are working with much finer tolerances.
If you use pure WW alloy the bullets tend to drop a couple thou larger than normal. A Lee mold meant to drop a .457" bullet according to the manufacturer often comes out at least .458" and up to .459". I drop them in water and I don't know if that is what causes them to "grow" or not. I almost never size bullets unless I need to put gas checks on them. Nearly all my plain base bullets get shot unsized.
Lyman molds are nice but personally I'd recommend learning to cast with a Lee. If you really screw it up while learning you're out a lot less money than if you screwed up a Lyman. Also gives you more time to figure out what you want in a mold so you can buy a good one with more experience under your belt.
To be honest, since the rifle is new, I'd just try some .458" or .459" cast and check for leading. Most new rifles are around .457". Slugging will tell you for sure but my last two 45-70's (H&R and Marlin) were both around .4575" from the factory. When you measure the slug, at a minimum check your calipers against something known like a factory bullet to make sure it gives a true reading. Ideally you want to use a micrometer to measure bullets since we are working with much finer tolerances.
If you use pure WW alloy the bullets tend to drop a couple thou larger than normal. A Lee mold meant to drop a .457" bullet according to the manufacturer often comes out at least .458" and up to .459". I drop them in water and I don't know if that is what causes them to "grow" or not. I almost never size bullets unless I need to put gas checks on them. Nearly all my plain base bullets get shot unsized.
Lyman molds are nice but personally I'd recommend learning to cast with a Lee. If you really screw it up while learning you're out a lot less money than if you screwed up a Lyman. Also gives you more time to figure out what you want in a mold so you can buy a good one with more experience under your belt.
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Go to Canadiantire and get lead fishing sinkers and a wood dowel
or as lutnit said try some .459 like these
LEE mold-sc-459-405hb
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