Redding Type S and Competition Dies?

O

ontariodoubletapper

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Location
Windsor, Ontario
I'm finally getting around to setting myself up for 308 reloading. Looking through some of the forums, Redding seems the way to go. I'm wondering what the difference is with the type s and competition dies? Mostly referring to the type s neck sizer and the competition neck sizer. Is it worth it to get the carbide kit for the competition bushing die?
Also who stocks and/or has the best pricing on a set of Redding type S dies in 308Win? I'd prefer not to go through a US company just so I don't have to deal with duty, etc...
 
The Type S Match has a Competition seating die . Once you use the competition seating die you will not settle for the RCBS / Hornady / Lee seaters. Its that much better !

You can also buy a Type S non match seating die which is a regular seating die . I would but the "Match" kit to get the Competition seating die. Its that much better

The Type S has a standard bushing die.

The Competion Bushing Set has a the competion seating die and in addition, the bushing die is also set by micrometer ( unlike the type S bushing die ) . I have one of these and they are a work of art but I am not convinced I need to set amount of the neck being sized with a micrometer . Only advantage I find is since there is a floating guide for the brass you can by less concious of how the brass enters the die. No more cruching the neck ! I find this hand in a progressive when I am chugging away

Not to confuse you but you should look at the Type S Match Neck . You get a neck bushing die, the micrometer competitionseating die and a body die . This gives you the option to neck size only . Neck sizing + body sizeing = full length resizing. You can get the Type S Match but you end up with a full length sizing die . This is the set style I buy most often now. Its the best bang for the buck for high end dies

As far as carbide expander ball kit it works as advertised ( no need to internal lube the neck ) If you use this in conjunction with the titanium nitrided bushings no need to lube neck at all !

However as per Reddings techs, if you are running the proper size bushing, you should remove the expander all together so it makes this a moot point

I bought my Redding from Wholesale sports "special order" .
 
So TRG-42, you don't think the competition bushing neck die set (58155) is worth the extra money over the type s bushing neck die set (38155)? I'm not one of the types that will cheap out on something like that if it is just a bit more money. I'd rather spend the money once and get the cadillac over buying the ford and upgrading later.
 
I currently use the Redding Competition die set for loading my .308, but I believe there is a better arrangement available. Send a standard full length die to a gunsmith along with an unsized fired case from your rifle. The gunsmith can cut the die to your desired neck tension and this custom die can be made to set the shoulder back very slightly, thus you have the best of both worlds. The die would then be used either with a sub caliber expander which would not contact the case neck or without any expander. The end result that your brass is more consistent resulting in a potential for greater accuracy and easier chambering of your loaded cartridges, particularly after your brass has been cycled several times.
 
I know it is fairly hard to say what kind of accuracy increase I would notice but how much more accurate are we talking? Taking out all other factors like powder, primers, bullet weight, what I had for breakfast what can I expect?
 
If the most accurate ammo is what you are after, the first purchase should be a quality runout guage. Without this, you are guessing even with the 'best' of dies. I use a Sinclair but the NECO is also supposed to be good.

I don't use any bushing dies, not because of cost, but because they don't do anything more then a Lee collet die. In fact, they can cause some troubling problems while sizing.

The best neck sizing die I know of are these collet dies. They size consistently, the right amount, all the way to the base of the neck (no doughnuts), no lube, no brainer operation, can be used in wildcat and similar case applications. They do require a bit more force during the sizing process as you are manually squeezing the necks down around a mandrel. you can adjust neck tension but I have never found the need to.

They size a standard 3 to 4 thou which is what many are settling on for LR accuracy bushing die or not.

If your chamber is concentric, which you will know if you have a runout guage, the sized brass from the collet die will also be dead on. If the brass leaves the sizing die straight, it will be unlikely that excessive runout will occur at the bullet seating stage. With that guage, you will know. You will also know if you need to turn your necks and how much.

I have used most dies from many companies and it wasn't until I got that runout guage did I see what did and didn't work. Enlightening to say the least.

I now use the good old Lee seating die with the collet neck die to make min runout ammo capable of shooting in the 1's. I also use the standard seating die from RCBS, Lyman. Forster makes a nice seating die if you like moving sleeves.

I used to think that FL sizing dies with expander balls were all bad. With the runout guage, I was able to see which did and didn't work. A bit of tweaking and the dies perform wonderfully.

Don't get me wrong, bushing dies are very popular but many are finding that they end up at the same point as the standard sizing dimensions anyways. They are also find donut issues after multiple high pressure loadings - bad for accuracy.

Also, the micrometer adjustments are interesting but I found I rarely ever used it. Seating just off the lands then tuning powder gave me all the results I could possibly use. As the barrel wears, a quick seating depth check will allow you to adjust your die to keep with the lands. That is a few thousand rds away in your typical 308.

If you love to fiddle with your loads, these adjustable dies will keep you amused and confused throughout the lifespan of that barrel. I prefer to dial a load in as quickly as possible so I can spend more of that barrels life hitting targets.

It is all good.

Jerry

PS, to answer your question, bullets, powder load, and primer matter way more then any case prep can. As long as you are using brass from the same brand and lot, done the basic case prep, fireformed then ensured they are straight, concentrate on the noise making stuff.

Use quality match bullets but also try different brands to see which your barrel likes the best. Some barrels are very picky and will go from ho-hum to tack driver with a change in pill. Weigh your charges and keep variance within 1 tenth. Test your loads in 2 tenth increments then go back in 1 tenth around your sweet spot. Use match primers and quality extruded powder like Varget/Re15.

The rest is up to the barrel, bedding and your ability to see and engage the target. If you are shooting a factory pipe, 1/2 MOA should be possible. 1/4 MOA unlikely.

All the finicky loading stuff MIGHT shave off a tenth. Shooting with a poorly bedded rifle or wobbly bench will affect your accuracy WAY more.
 
Last edited:
ontariodoubletapper said:
So TRG-42, you don't think the competition bushing neck die set (58155) is worth the extra money over the type s bushing neck die set (38155)? I'm not one of the types that will cheap out on something like that if it is just a bit more money. I'd rather spend the money once and get the cadillac over buying the ford and upgrading later.
Click to expand...


The competiton seating is worth the money because case is perfectly guided and its nice to have different seating depths if you shoot a variety of bullets

As far as the competition neck, I find that you normally arent playing the with neck bushing depth, so once its set its set ( regardless of bullet, brass brand etc. They Type S will also allow you to play with the bushing depth although its not a micrometer

The flexibility of a bushing die is better than a custom die if you you use more than 1 brand brass / rifle

I have 5 308s and use LC , Win, Lapua , Norma brass so going to a custom die wouldnt work for me

It would suprise you how much neck thicknesses vary between brands and after numerous firings

For example, if I use the the largest busing I generally use for my plinker brass ( mil surp brass ) the neck tension is zero - bullet falls in after neck sizing !

If you want to spend the extra $$ for the competition bushing die have at it. I would rather spend the extra $100 on better optics / rifle
 
TRG-42, neck thickness is a great point and another big reason why the collet die works so well.

The collet die sets the sizing from the INSIDE (set by the dies mandrel). Doesn't matter how thick or varied the necks are, the internal dimension (minus variance for spring back) is always the same.

Much more tolerant of necks that vary in thickness around the circumferance. So any brand of brass sized will end up with the same inside neck dimension even if the outside dimension is different.

A bushing die works on the outside dimension so variance in neck thickness will affect your final result both in tension as well as concentricity. ie, the outside may be concentric after sizing but the inside of the neck may be off.

Neck turning is essential with this style of die for best results.

Jerry
 
ontariodoubletapper said:
I know it is fairly hard to say what kind of accuracy increase I would notice but how much more accurate are we talking? Taking out all other factors like powder, primers, bullet weight, what I had for breakfast what can I expect?
Click to expand...

What we are talking about is a matter of increased potential, rather than realized accuracy. Reloading dies are one part of your overall system, and to see a marked improvement in accuracy from one die to another, the rest of your system must already have demonstrated an accuracy benchmark. If your rifle and ammo shoots 1.5 MOA the difference in dies might not add up to much, but if the rifle is capable of shooting .25 MOA getting dies which produce ammo with consistently small tolerances will allow your rifle to shoot to it's potential. You need to build consistency into your system, and you have to start somewhere - why not with the dies? Once the variables from your ammo have been removed, you can concentrate on the other variables within your system until it has reached the level of accuracy which you can no longer utilize.
 
Some quick points.

If the brass has irregular neck wall thickness the neck will never be concentric after firing/sizing. The thinner side of the brass will always yield first.

Often we hear about the term "Donuts"

To clarify, this happens over time to neck turned brass. Multiple firings, resizing and trimming. What happens is as the case length grows, the unturned portion of the brass shoulder moves into the neck. Consequently you have a thick ring or donut. This can create pressure spikes or more serious consequences in a tight neck chamber.

On some neck turners a bevel is cut into the cutter so it is able to remove a portion of the shoulder just past the neck/shoulder joint. Its effective influenced by the slope of the shoulder of the casing.
 
If the chamber is cut concentric, the fired brass will be a mirror image of that chamber wouldn't it?. As far as I know, brass yields at the pressures we normally shoot at no matter what the neck thickness.

Wouldn't any variations in the neck thickness then show up on the inside of the fired neck?

So far, measuring runout with some pretty wonky brass still shows the outside of the necks concentric even though a thickness guage tells otherwise. could be measuring wrong????

If using a collet neck sizer, the mandrel ensures that the inner dimension must conform to itself. The brass has not where to go. Any irregularities are then pushed to the outside of the neck. The collet fingers will give to account for these slight variations.

Also, with enough pressure, the collet COULD squeeze the irregularities so that the necks are more even. Never measured so this is just speculation but there is alot of force and brass is quite ductile. Afterall, we are changing its shape within the die aren't we?

With a collet die, we are sizing from the inside out ie the final shape is determined by the mandrel.

After using a collet die, neck turning will ensure that both the inside AND outside are even with each other. Seems to pan out with my measuring.

If donuts are mostly formed by brass moving from the shoulder to the base of the neck area, why are donuts never/rarely if ever seen when using FL or conventional neck sizing dies or with collet dies? At least I have yet to find it with thousands of rds fired using all manner of cartridges with different neck angles and brass brands. toasty pressures used more often then not too.

Maybe it has something to do with the bushing pushing the material down? Or that the bushing cannot size right to the base of the neck/shoulder junction leaving an unsized area that grows over time to form the donut. Sort of like partial sizing with a FL die.

If memory serves me right, a bushing has a beveled inside edge, not sharp as in a convention or collet die.

There are alot of shooters who swear by the bushing dies. Many of these shooters are also excellent shots and drive some very exciting groups/scores. So there is alot of positives to these dies.

However, a growing number of shooters are also reporting some dissatisfaction.

Your mileage may vary.

Jerry
 
Last edited:
Jerry You raise some interesting points. I have been using the Redding Type S match bushing dies for several years and really like them. They seem to have enhanced my grouping with their use, but this could also be attributed to my switching over to an Acculab scale, and either Lapua or Nosler brass. Personally I think it is a combination of these changes together that have attributed to far tighter groups I am now shooting.
I have no experience with the Lee dies, this may be the elitist redneck and old age showing in me.
The bushings do have a slight bevel , I assumed to allow the neck to enter into the bushing easier.
I had not thought of the fact that the bushing could well be pushing or working the brass towards the shoulder, I only size the top 1/4" of the neck. After a few shootings I need to use the bump die to set the shoulders back a thou or 2 to keep the bolt closing easily.
I do not use any expander ball, just a decapping rod alone.
I have not encountered any donuts other than at Dunkin, but that is not to say I won't.
I think you may have a valid theory, certainly something I had never thought of.
Thanks! Time to ponder now.
KK
 
mysticplayer,
You bring up some interesting points. The collet die has a lot going for it.

Just a theory but if the brass thickness is uneven then wont the case spring back unevenly pulling it out of concentric with the bore?

In an attempt to avoid the dread donut I set my bushings so they do not fully size the neck shoulder area.

ontariodoubletapper,
In my opinion the better reloading practices and equipment really become noticeable at the 5-600 yard mark,
Single digit velocity variation and should be your goal as it is key at long range.
Good brass fixes most minor problems inside 500 yards.

Hard to go wrong with Redding (especially the seater) as you should find your bullets to have less overall runout.

That said, I doubt you will see "accuracy improvements" with the dies alone, but as you begin to pay attention to the "little things" you should begin to see an overall improvement in consistency with less fliers.

Good luck!
 
kk, that is exactly why the bushings are beveled, but because they are beveled, they can never get right tight on the neck/shoulder junction. Mechanically not possible.

If you fire a case enough, there WILL be migration of brass forward. Conventional solid dies or collet dies squish this brass 'back into place'. At least a whole lot better then the bushing dies.

I have seen posts from competitive shooters that get a bulge on the INSIDE of the neck too. This is felt during the bullet seating step. That causes all sorts of wonderful pressure spikes and flyers. Solution is to ream and neck turn or better, pitch the case.

With the bushing, there is no mechanical way to control the inside of that neck. The die only squeezes the brass inwards. That brass has to go somewhere and will flow along the path of least resistance.

The collet die has that mandrel which the necks are formed over. Any 'extra' brass can't migrate into the neck so I assume it is formed back into the shoulder area. Cases don't grow in length so I know it is not being forced up. The collet petals size tight on the neck shoulder junction. In fact, you can leave marks if you are motivated enough with the press. The case neck is formed outside and in which I feel is the best solution to maintaining concentricity and dimensional consistency. Really helps with neck tension as well.

If Redding at invented this tech, it would likely sell for $150 and they wouldn't be able to keep it on the shelves. It is a better way of sizing in my opinion.

I really don't think a shooter is going to see these issues until you start loading a case at least 6 times and fire at high pressures.

With todays vault tight actions, a case can easily see 30 to 50 reloads. Many BR shooters toss the brass AFTER the barrel is dead. Here is when you will start to see all sorts of issues with brass flow and sizing problems.

I think the collet die is one possible solution to this problem. So is careful annealing.

I can only assume you don't have a runout guage. I think your smaller groups coincide with using a die that doesn't induce runout in your fired brass. I found the same thing when I used my first collet die.

Now that I have a runout guage and can measure some of my old dies, I have found some really interesting results. Some pretty wonky expander rods/balls. At the same time, I also found some FL dies that did an awesome job with little to no induced runout. Not surprisingly (at least now), the rifles that these dies were used for also shot great.

With the collet die and my runout gauge, all manner of brass is working just fine.

X-fan, I think because the pressures the neck sees are beyond its elastic limit, the brass is formed to the chamber shape. Of course, there is spring back but not very much. Also, I think the variance in modern commercial brass like Win, is not all that bad.

Measuring all sorts of brass fired in well cut chambers show the fired brass have little to no runout (within the error of my dial indicator). So if the brass is 'bumpy', it is forming to the inside.

I am using once fired 223 Win likely range pick up from a cop practise session. Maybe I am super lucky and it all came from one lot. At any rate, I am using it prepped but unsorted and it is allowing my Stevens to shoot 3/8 MOA average out to 200yds and clay pigeon accuracy at 750yds+. Made it out to 1000m and it did very well limited by my ability to dope the winds.

Quick measurements show this brass to be very consistent indeed.

As long as the dies produce ammo with little runout, what dies you use really doesn't matter. Only with a runout gauge will you know for sure what you are making.

LR accuracy is most definitely about the little things. Match primers, quality powder, low runout ammo, accurate bullets all working in an accurate barrel housed in a solid lock up stable rifle with a light trigger and clear optics.

You don't need to kill yourself weighing and measuring everything (if using quality components that is) nor spend a small fortune on every little widget. Just pay attention to a few key details and know where every bullet lands while working up your loads. See my Stevens 223 post for how I do things.

Once you are confident in what/why a bullet lands where it does, you can tweak for max accuracy shaving a tenth here and there. Now you have a rifle that can truly hold 1/2 MOA 1.5 secs away.

The problem is a switching wind can still blow you 3 MOA or 3 FEET from where you want to go.

Where do you think you should be paying the most attention????

Jerry
 
I'm going to have to agree with Mysticplayer as far as trigger time, wind and such.

You can have the best handload in the world and it won't do you any good if you can't shoot it.

Some very interesting points here, great source of information.

Keep it coming guys!
 
The one question I have about the Lee Collet dies, and it may not be an issue; how do you assure consistant pressure when compressing the case neck. Perhaps I'm not using the die correctly but it seems that there is no particular 'stop' and the amount of sizing is more controlled by amount of force, which in particular my 22-250 is farely heavy to get anykind of bullet grip.

I dare state however, accuracy is not an issue.

Also, I don't like lee's aluminum parts and rubber washers.
 
bisonhd, again, another very nice feature of the collet die, you cannot oversize the neck. The neck hits that mandrel and that is that. Any additional force just goes into bending your press.

Lee usually puts steel where it needs to go and in this die, the working parts are steel. The housing is alum which shouldn't really experience any strain unless you really do to town on that lever.

Jerry
 
I have a Neco concentricity guage set up and use a Bersin device on the odd 1 that is not totally concentric. I have set my bushing dies to only go about 1/2 way down the neck, just enough to hold the bullet in place, so the bevel on the bushing does not come even close to the shoulder, this is possibly why I have no donuts of the brass variety. As mentioned I use no expander ball on my decapping pin so nothing on the casing gets touched apart from the primer getting pushed out.
So far I have over 2 dozen loading from a batch of Nosler brass for my 1 300 that sees the most range time, have never trimmed, just bumped occasionally.
I think your theory has merit, I am making up a mandrel to replace the decapping pin, kind of a hybrid between the collet and the bushing dies. Will let you know how it works.
KK
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom