Relative Accuracy of .303 and .30-06 MILSURPs

You might want to keep in mind that any of these rifles were designed to KILL PEOPLE instead of paper targets. Now excluding us fat old farts, how wide are you and how tall are you? That's the target they were designed for.
Vertical stringing? a hit in the chest if you are aiming at the belt line is still fatal.
 
I agree that superior accuracy can be achieved with match grade heavy barrels,glass bedding,target sights,etc.But the purpose of my original post was simply to outline what my experiences have been in shooting a cross section of MILSURP rifles in as-issued,servicable military configuration. Bore dimensions certainly are variable,even in new military barrels.For info
the muzzle (bore) diameter of the rifles in my original post is as follows.
1903 Springfields: .300(new),.300(new),.295(new),.301,.3017,and .303.
M1917 Enfields: .3017,.3015,and .302
M1 Garands: .300(new),.300(new),.3005(new),and .3017
No4 Lee-Enfields: .3015(new),.3022(new),.3022,.303 and .303
I find it a tribute to mass production under wartime conditions that an acceptable quality/accuracy level was maintained for all of these types.I built a M1903 sporter some 16 yrs ago that I fitted with a new 9/43 dated Remington military barrel. This rifle is bedded with a floating barrel and is mounted with a 6x Burris scope.I have developed sub-MOA hunting loads for it with 150gr,165gr,and 180gr bullets.
 
Purple:
The following comments apply to the use of the Canadian made Mk7 and Mk8 military bullets, and the IVI 150 gr .311" black plastic tipped hunting bullets.
I recommend you retest your No.4 rifle with the same bullet as was loaded in the Mk7 load. The bullet is a FLAT base, 174 gr FMJ, and .311" diameter. Pull down some military loads for the bullet if you have to in order to use your fireformed brass and powder of choice. Make no other change than this bullet....to reduce your variables to ONE.
The Mk8 boat-tail bullet (174 gr, .311" FMJBT) just would not group at 100 yards...but grouped well at 200M after it had "gone to sleep". This Mk8 bullet is really SUPERIOR out of a Mosin-Nagant sniper at distance...but that's another story. In my experience, trying to group a boat-tail bullet out of a No.4 rifle at 100M is a waste of time, guilding metal and powder.
The above offered FWIW.
Your work is a tribute to proper records keeping.
The palest ink is better than the strongest memory.
 
The majority of my .303 testing was done with the 174gr Sierra and Hornady boat-tail bullets.I do have a quantity of various MK7 ball ammo types on hand and will most likely pull and re-seat the bullets over various cannister propellants,incl RE 15,IMR 4064,Varget and H414,next spring/summer.I did incl 35x 3 shot groups featuring the 180gr Sierra spitzer flat base bullet in my testing.I broke these out and found that the average group size with these in the 6 No4 test rifles was 3"-the same as the overall average with all types of bullets.I believe the Sierra bullet to be as accurate as any of the MILSPEC .303 bullets,so perhaps I should'nt expect any better results using MK7 pulldown bullets.When doing one of his comprehensive tests of the .303 Brit for Handloader magazine back in 1976 Ken Waters found that his test rifles showed an accuracy preference for 150gr flat base spitzer bullets and advocated the use of a 150gr bullet over 43.5 gr IMR 4064 as an optimum hunting load for deer-sized game.On re-reading Waters,I think I will do more testing with the 150gr Sierra spitzer which I have found to be more accurate than the 150gr Hornady.
Although my MILSURP testing shows the superior accuracy of the .30-06 in the M1903 Springfield,M1 Garand and M1917 Enfield,I remain a life-long fan of the .303 Brit having shot a few truckloads of game with it over the past 46 yrs. My sentimental favorite is a No5 JC which I bought new for $18 back in 1961/62. The late Eddie Mather,who used to operate his shop on Avenue A North in Saskatoon,drilled and tapped this rifle for a Weaver TO1 mount and told me that if I got better than 4" groups with it I would be doing well.It has consistently averaged 3" for me with the 180gr Speer over the yrs and has gotten me three of my finest game animals, incl my best Whitetail head(Sask 1967),biggest bodied WT(New Brunswick 1980) and a big cinnamon/honey brown boar black bear(Sask 1994). It is still my preferred rifle for hunting in the bush where shots come at close range.
A couple of additional comments on .303 accuracy. An old CSM of mine who did a lot of competition shooting with the No4 said that they generally bested US Army shooters using the Garand.He put this down to the better ballistic properties of the 174 gr .303 bullet over distance vs the standard 150gr M2 ball bullet used in the Garand-I think an unfair basis for comparison. Obviously this is why the US Army specified the use of the heavier 173gr bullets in their .30-06 match ammo.Secondly,the accuracy standard for the No4 sniper rifle,as specified in the Cdn Army EMEI,was a 5 shot 3" group @100yds. Re the question on .303 case life in my No4 and P14 rifles;I keep a good quantity of brass in use, segregate it by rifle,and necksize only after initial firing.I'm now up to 6 firing /re-loading cycles on my current brass,shooting less than max loads, and see no difference between the No4s and the P14. I would encourage the use of the heaviest brass available for longest case life.
 
Try shooting cast bullets our of your #4. I use the 314299 Lyman bullet which weighs in at just over 200 gr. I am no shooter and I can keep them within 3" most of the time now at 100 yds. I size the .313 which seems to be what my rifle likes. The bullets are gas checked and are WW alloy water quenched. 23 gr of 4227 iswhat my rifle seems to like though I have had good results with R 15.

Take Care

Bob
 
Garand said:
Purple, just a side question, do you get longer brass life out of your P-14, than your Lee Enfield #4 Mk 1??
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Forgive my cutting in, but my P14 is really good with brass, which is one of the many reasons why I sold my other Enfields, and kept the P14. :)
 
purple said:
The majority of my .303 testing was done with the 174gr Sierra and Hornady boat-tail bullets.I do have a quantity of various MK7 ball ammo types on hand and will most likely pull and re-seat the bullets over various cannister propellants,incl RE 15,IMR 4064,Varget and H414,next spring/summer.I did incl 35x 3 shot groups featuring the 180gr Sierra spitzer flat base bullet in my testing.I broke these out and found that the average group size with these in the 6 No4 test rifles was 3"-the same as the overall average with all types of bullets.I believe the Sierra bullet to be as accurate as any of the MILSPEC .303 bullets,so perhaps I should'nt expect any better results using MK7 pulldown bullets.When doing one of his comprehensive tests of the .303 Brit for Handloader magazine back in 1976 Ken Waters found that his test rifles showed an accuracy preference for 150gr flat base spitzer bullets and advocated the use of a 150gr bullet over 43.5 gr IMR 4064 as an optimum hunting load for deer-sized game.On re-reading Waters,I think I will do more testing with the 150gr Sierra spitzer which I have found to be more accurate than the 150gr Hornady.
Although my MILSURP testing shows the superior accuracy of the .30-06 in the M1903 Springfield,M1 Garand and M1917 Enfield,I remain a life-long fan of the .303 Brit having shot a few truckloads of game with it over the past 46 yrs. My sentimental favorite is a No5 JC which I bought new for $18 back in 1961/62. The late Eddie Mather,who used to operate his shop on Avenue A North in Saskatoon,drilled and tapped this rifle for a Weaver TO1 mount and told me that if I got better than 4" groups with it I would be doing well.It has consistently averaged 3" for me with the 180gr Speer over the yrs and has gotten me three of my finest game animals, incl my best Whitetail head(Sask 1967),biggest bodied WT(New Brunswick 1980) and a big cinnamon/honey brown boar black bear(Sask 1994). It is still my preferred rifle for hunting in the bush where shots come at close range.
A couple of additional comments on .303 accuracy. An old CSM of mine who did a lot of competition shooting with the No4 said that they generally bested US Army shooters using the Garand.He put this down to the better ballistic properties of the 174 gr .303 bullet over distance vs the standard 150gr M2 ball bullet used in the Garand-I think an unfair basis for comparison. Obviously this is why the US Army specified the use of the heavier 173gr bullets in their .30-06 match ammo.Secondly,the accuracy standard for the No4 sniper rifle,as specified in the Cdn Army EMEI,was a 5 shot 3" group @100yds. Re the question on .303 case life in my No4 and P14 rifles;I keep a good quantity of brass in use, segregate it by rifle,and necksize only after initial firing.I'm now up to 6 firing /re-loading cycles on my current brass,shooting less than max loads, and see no difference between the No4s and the P14. I would encourage the use of the heaviest brass available for longest case life.
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I have a 1917 smle mk III sporter my gramps gave me
That is the exact thing that the local gunsmith told me "lucky to do 3" at 100yds! and I had a hard time getting it to do better Until one day after reading some enfield info I thought why reinvent the wheel so I took the mark VII load info with a 174 gr flat bottom rn (I used a hornady interlock) 37.5 grains of IMR 4895 which Is right around 2100 fps and low and behold The first group went .338 of an inch second was .981 of an inch

Now this is the best part it it was -20c outside that day and I haven't shot that good of a group out of it since!!!!!!!!! but I can still keep it inside 2"

anyway when it get cold this winter you'll find me at my range with my enfeild cause I just wonder if it will happen again????
 
I have a P14 made by Winchester in 1916. It sports all matching serial numbers, and has the original barrel, which, while not "dark", does show a few signs of age. The barrel slugs at .3128" This rifle has been sporterized, and has a 6x36 Leupold on top, a Boyd's Pepper Laminate stock and a Timney trigger. It shows it's capability with 3 bullets/loads. All three will shoot moa or slightly less if I do my part. The first is the Hornady 150 grain FB Spitzer using 47.0 grains of Vihtavuori N540 in a Winchester case, fired by the CCI 200. Second is the 180Sierra Spitzer FB using 50.0 grains of W760 in a Winchester case, fired by the CCI 250. Finally we have the 200 Grain Mk9 Redgwell SSFB using 48 grains of Higginsons 47N fired by the WLR primer in a Winchester case. These loads are all too stiff for a Lee-Enfield, but are great in this old P14. I have shot game with all three loads, and they kill decisively. A number of other bullets/loads are in the 1.25"-1.75" @ 100 area, and would hunt just fine. Speaks well of an older barrel's capability. I also have a 303 Epps on a P14 that shoots well, but the barrel looks good inside, and slugs at .3125" Regards, Eagleye.
 
I've got a '45 Isaphore that is a tack driver (relatively speaking 1" to 1.5") on Prvi Partizan 174gr ammo. It's barrel is bright with sharp rifling.

I'm just starting to re-load for it and hope for better with just neck sizing. It has the typical loose chamber of the military 303s and I'm a bit surprised it shoots like it does with factory brass.

It groups as well as my M1 Garand with a target barrel and tight headspacing.

I've only got 3 SMLEs so I've got a small sample group, but all my research shows that hand loaded and neck sized ammo, loaded for less than full power, tends to bring out the best accuracy in the SMLE.

I'll let you know how I get on with my target load development over the next few months.

I doubt I'll come close to my Savage M-112 FVSS (30-06) which is as easy sub-MOA rifle with FMJ ball and much better with target loads. However, being able to hold my own in club Highpower with an SMLE is good fun.
 
This is a WONDERFUL thread!

Thanks, purple, for your test results and for all that very hard work.

I have been shooting .303s for too many years to want to remember, but I have found that most any .303 I have tried shows a definite preference for IMR4895 powder and for a 180 flatbase bullet such as the Sierra.

The original combat ballistics of the .303 round were arrived at by splitting the difference between the heaviest load that could be used in a worn-out rifle with a minimum barrel...... and the most accurate load they could build.

As to that most accurate load they could build, it ran about 2250 ft/sec from the SMLE barrel. Duplicating THIS load, using the Sierra 180 flatbase ahead of 37 or 38 grains of 4895, I have got quarter-inch 2-shot called goups from a 1910 Ross, 7/16 repeatedly from an Australian 1918 SMLE and exactlt 1 inch from a completely-original 1918 National that I haven't worked on at ALL.

These seem to be infinitely-repeatable groups, given that you have sandbags and better eyes than mine. SEVERAL people have got these results with these loads and these rifles. The ONLY thing I do that's not 100% kosher is seat the 180 Sierra to the OAL of a Mark VII Ball round. I know, this crowds the leade just a bit, but the different ogive gives a short start. Seems to make them shoot better.

Again, thanks for sharing all that hard work.
 
MILSURP accuracy- 2 MOA or better

I thought I'd ressurect this thread from a couple of years ago in view of the current discusssion on aquiring a 2 MOA capable MILSURP. What's stunning about these old rifles is that many of them have actually turned in 3 shot groups in the .25-.5 inch range.:eek: Now was that because of me or the gods of random bullet dispersion?;)
 
purple said:
I thought I'd ressurect this thread from a couple of years ago in view of the current discusssion on aquiring a 2 MOA capable MILSURP. What's stunning about these old rifles is that many of them have actually turned in 3 shot groups in the .25-.5 inch range.:eek: Now was that because of me or the gods of random bullet dispersion?;)
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Back from the grave!!:D:D
 
desporterizer said:
Did you ever repeat the 303 tests with the mk 7 bullets?
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I haven't had much time to lollygag around at the range since then.:redface: I bought a 30 yr old 3000sq ft house last summer and have been in the major reno mode ever since.:rockOn: Also was persuaded to take a job doing wildlife crop damage compensation claims for the last 2 seasons and my contract has kept me busier than I thought. On the plus side, I do get to roam the country spotting beaucoup elk, deer, sheep, and a few bears- and get paid for it.;)

When I retired from the Army 14 yrs ago one of my resolutions was to put 5 bullets thru the same hole @ 100 yds.:eek: I've gotten close a few times, but still no cigar. Renos will be done next spring, so there will be more time for some kickback at the range next year, and that will include some .303 time.:) Crap, I built 6 rifles last winter and bought 2 more that haven't even been shot beyond proofing and zeroing them.V:I: And then there are all the tasks and duties which come with having a new bride.:bigHug:
 
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