reloading 44mag with black powder ?

lone ranger

lone ranger

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I have this old 44 made by sauer & sohn
They are Not Robust like a Ruger GP 100 and I know for sure a steady diet of store bought ammo will loosen it up.

I tried using PMC but find it awfully hot to shoot.

I did do some down loaded reloads and it was fun and accurate....But I only have a tiny bit of powder left.

HOWEVER.....I have a TON of unopened Black powder left from my Cowboy shooting days that has been sitting for the last 10 years on the shelf. "CORRECTION- TRIPLE F SUBSTITUTE'
I would love to start using it instead of it taking up space.

My thoughts......32 grains seems to fill up the Case enough and leave room for the Bullet with a little compression. I have 100"s of 240gr projectiles I will be using up as well. "pic"

My old cap N ball 44 rem 1858 used 35grains of black powder.

seems like it should work in a modern 44cartridge ?? Your Thoughts ??

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I have no experience loading with black powder for anything, but flipping through Lyman Black Powder Manual 2nd edition - pages 318 / 319 they are showing multiple Black Powder loads for 44 Special, 45 Schofield and 45 Colt with various listed Lyman mould cast lead bullets. I do not see 44 Magnum listed, but perhaps that case volume might fit into one of those?? To re-iterate - I have never tried and do not know - just what I found 2 minutes ago in this book...

FYI - not that I completely follow it, but at least 5 or 6 brands and granulations of black powder are listed - and 3 different versions of Pyrodex - all seem to have different loadings given, although some are similar. So, perhaps, not all is the same??
 
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ya...same kinda info I found...nothing for 44mag

Perhaps I will have to hit the cowboy action forums and see what they are using. some one has to know.
Thank you for the info.


up date. I found that they use 30gr for a 200grbullit

so ....28gr for a 240gr bullit..? "they say not to leave an "air space"

-duelist1954 uses 33gr of 2fg

seems like I'm not gonna get an exact number.....but 28gr to 33gr is close by the look of things.

"in any case....there will never be enough powder in the case to cause damage" at 28 to 33
 
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Loading .44 mag with black powder is no different than with any other suitable cartridge. Triple 7 does take a slightly different approach, though.

Unlike loading with black powder ....Triple 7 should NOT be compressed. The bullet should just seat onto the powder charge, and no more. Nor should there be any air space, between powder and bullet base. Otherwise, nasty pressure spikes could occur. Unlike black powder though, Triple 7 cleans up a lot easier afterward.

Here's a tip: After you've poured the initial powder charge, be sure to gently tap the case a few times, to settle the powder. Since Triple 7 is fairly fine stuff, it should easily. Then, measure again. Top up the charge, if necessary. This will ensure there are no air gaps. Once you're satisfied that the charge is correct, measure it on a scale. That's about it.

Hope this helps.

Al

ps: Since you're familiar with percussion revolvers.....you already know that plated/jacketed bullets don't play well with black powder. Triple 7, though cleaner burning, being no exception.
 
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Triple 7 is not black powder but a substitute with different chemistry and possibly different rules for use on cartridges regarding compression or filling the case. I've never looked into it myself but checking the published information is a good idea.

The next concern I would have if I were using the components you pictured is that the bullets have no lube. Black powder and the substitutes that I'm familiar with leave residue that accumulates, bakes hard with additional shots and starts chewing up bullets leading to terrible accuracy, leading and a mess that's tough to clean out. A wax and plant or animal based grease lube keeps the fouling soft so each shot pushes out the fouling from the shot before. The plated bullets might work okay but I wouldn't use them with black powder in my guns without lube and without grease grooves that would mean a grease cookie under the bullets. In a pistol cartridge it's way too much hassle and you don't have the case capacity to work with that a rifle has.

My suggestion is to buy a jug of D700 from Canada Ammo and use it for mid power loads instead.
 
Hmmm...I can kinda see where this is going.
I have the wrong projectiles for this powder....
would have to lube them.....dont compress the load

all kinda defeats the purpose. Lots of things I didnt know.
well...I will use ALL this knowledge I have learned here and load up a few and give it a try.
not sure how this is gonna pan out. will let you all know in a couple of days.


"My suggestion is to buy a jug of D700 from Canada Ammo and use it for mid power loads instead." This might be a good idea !
 
I was using 8GR of Autocomp and it worked very well. Great accuracy and very pleasant to shoot.
But Im just about empty and havent found anymore.
Was just trying to use up a whole wack of BP I had

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lone ranger: You may also find Unique or Universal(Essentially the same burn rate) also make good powder choices, for mid-power loads. Use .44 Special load data. Mild shooting and accurate. Your plated bullets will be happier, too.

Al

ps: BP works well in .44 mag. All it takes are lead bullets with bp-suitable lube. If you like to cast your own, molds for these are readily available.
 
Thank you Alex now I have lots of options!


well this has been great. And Thanks guys....I have learned alot and have a couple different directions I can go.
 
OP, maybe a head's up? You repeatedly mention "black powder" but show a picture of a bottle of Triple Seven. Not exactly the same thing. Then I note your bottle says it is FFFG version - so finer granules compared to FFG or FG. Just do not mix up "BP" information with Triple Seven information, and it appears that the granulation thing can make a difference. Might be some differences among Goex versus Elephant versus Swiss brand BP - I am not sure. I think that at one time the Triple Seven bottle said not to use FFFG in a cartridge - only loose, like in a muzzle loader, or on a flash pan, but I can not find that any more. However, I see your bottle label lists a round ball load for what I presume is a 45 Colt. Was a bit of a thing when I had a Thompson Center in-line 50 caliber - I only did use Triple Seven pellets in it - I had one bottle of FFG Triple Seven to try, but never did use any - never tried with black powder either - pages of loads in the TC owner's manual that appeared to show what components I was using made a difference.
 
Just use a grease cookie between those jacketed slugs & your powder same as CRBP shooters use and they will work just fine & your fowling will probably be softer than just groove lubed bullets. will take up a bit of powder space but for plinking loads who cares.
 
"OP, maybe a head's up? You repeatedly mention "black powder" but show a picture of a bottle of Triple Seven."

Thank you....I went back and made the correction,.YES Black powder Substitute triple 7
 
lone ranger: I wouldn't be too concerned about Triple 7's role as a black powder substitute. The Fffg grade powder you have is designed to operate within the pressure/velocity parameters of either "real" Fffg black powder...ie:Goex, Swiss, etc. Or: black powder substitutes like Pyrodex. In this case, Pyrodex P. Which makes it perfectly safe to use, within its loading recommendations.

So typically, load volume is reduced anywhere between 10-15% to equal the performance of say: Ffg. The easiest way to think of the difference is to compare fast burning smokeless powder, to slow burning smokeless. In many cases, a lot less of the fast burning powder is used, to create equivalent performance compared to its slower burning counterpart.

Maybe not the best analogy, but offers some idea of the differences. Just so, with fast/slow bp(or its equivalents).

I know several CAS competitors who regularly use Triple 7/ Fffg in .45 Colt cartridges. Which have a larger case volume than the .44 mag. The trick here, is to simply reduce the "air gap" left when the charge is reduced, by means of a card, or wad.

Using the 15% reduction as a guide...For example: if 30 grains by volume of Triple 7/Fffg filled the case to the base of your bullet...a 15% reduction is going to be about 4.5 grains. So 25 grains, when rounded up. You may run into a number a bit higher or lower. But use the same formula. Then...simply calculate how much gap is created...and use either a card or felt wad, to make up the difference. Keeping in mind that the Triple 7 powder should still not be compressed to any great degree. Do not use any other fillers...ie: cream of wheat, grits, etc. These are not recommended. Card wads are okay, though.

By now, you're probably asking yourself: "Why am I going through all this effort, just to load some cartridges"? Part of the game, my friend. The added challenge is why many shooters prefer to go this route. It's a good way to relive how shooting in the Old West...with all its limitations, compared to today.... may have been. Besides...It's fun!

Fingers284 brought up an interesting point about using a grease cookie under the plated bullet, when using a reduced powder charge. Both to take up the air space. Plus provide lubrication. I have not tried this combination...having always used lead bullets... but an interesting approach, nonetheless.

About all I would recommend is the addition of a thin card* or other barrier(wax paper disk), between powder and grease cookie. In order to prevent/reduce lube migration into the powder charge. Not an issue if you're going to shoot these cartridges right away...but might cause problems if stored for any length of time. Especially in a warm area.

Hope this helps.

Al

* I punch these out of soda or beer can cartons. The card will run around .020" in thickness...so won't affect the overall seating depth of the bullet(powder compression) to any degree. .44 mag will use the same card diameter as .44-40......7/16"(or metric equivalent).
 
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"By now, you're probably asking yourself: "Why am I going through all this effort"

LOL....ya..we are a special bunch. We love reloading and trying different things for sure.

will let you guys know how it works out and what the" Magic Formula works best"

I just watched a video where the guy "lubes the end of the cylinders after loading lol " reminds me of Cap N ball shooting.
 
RANGE UP date

well I tries all 3 of these powders.
I used 32g "as measured with my Black Powder brass gauge" It was the best powder fit for "crush & Air Gap"

I cheated and just lubed the front of the cylinder with Vaseline "just like a Cap N Ball"

I noticed NO difference between any of the powders..the recoil was the same.

lots of smoke with all 3. Triple F had the least.

The Difference between BP and Regular powder- The gun didnt jump and was more of a Push with BP
The recoil was less than my 8g of autocomp. So,..very nice to shoot with BP.
My 1858 Remington with 32g jumped Harder.
the Accuracy was way better than expected.....no issue hitting my 8x8 targets at 40 yards.

The gun had powder residue on it but not as bad as my Cap N Ball use to have.
the barrel cleaned out easy with soap & water and a brush.

the brass wasnt really dirty at all.....I was amazed. Usually I have a lot of carbon on the brass with regular powder.

I honestly dont thing you can go wrong with BP substitutes. Ya cant put enough in to damage anything...and the powders all seem to act the same. Easy peasy.
A Mild Smokey shooting 44 LOL . was really surprised how Tame it was to shoot.


the powder used with the measuring gauge
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the projectiles
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the lube Vaseline
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loneranger: Thanks for the update. As expected, the cartridges performed as they should. Aside from using vaseline on the chamber mouths, your results pretty much duplicated my own, with .44 mag. Only real difference is the plated vs lead bullets I loaded. The .44 mag does make a viable bp cartridge. Have fun!

Al
 
LOL...thanks. I was thinking about buying another Cap N Ball....but this is soooomuch easier. Just slip the bullets' in and GO
 
loneranger: Fun, ain't it? If a cap and ball still figures in your future plans, you might consider a cartridge conversion cylinder to go along with it. Or even for your current c&b revolver, if you still have one.
Very versatile and offers the best of both worlds. The .44 caliber versions being the easiest to work with. As the conversion is to .45 Colt. Conversion cylinders are readily available for both Pietta and Uberti revolvers. Taylor & Company, is a good source. Worth a look.

Al
 
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well I even did up a modern load of Auto Comp powder. I used 7gr and I love it. feels like a hot 38 LOL
Fantastic accuracy and you can "1 hand it" all day long. nice easy shooting.
 
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