Rem700 receivers
- Thread starter tetan
- Start date
My point was that after condemning the use of the sako extractor on 700 actions,the person could offer no explanation as to why why Stiller uses then on his action which is basically just a better made version of the 700 action.He could have simply posted that he had no logical answer,but instead he chose to avoid answering the question altogether.My personal feeling is that a previous poster was correct when he posted:
You are trying to put words in my mouth. I think you are trolling... Not having examined a Predator action I will not comment on it.
If I have said anything about the 700 "conversion" that is not correct, please feel free to respond in an informative way.
Perhaps start a new thread...
.
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Just waiting for an explanation to a answer to the question that was previously posted by someone else.
You already commented on it.You haven't examined the stiller,yet you are insinuating that the version with the sako extractor is not as safe.So are you insinuating that one version is overly safe,or that the other version is not safe enough?Not to worry,I am not expecting an answer.
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Stubblejumper,
Guntech is a profesional gunsmith. Without seeing how they implimented the Sako extractor on that particular semi custom action, how or more importantly why would he comment on it?
I have to agree it sounds like trolling. It's pretty clear why a professional wouldn't comment on something they haven't checked out.
Guntech, thank you for the explanation about the Sako extractor being retrofitted to the 700 action. Excellent posts. It explained the dangers very well.
Guntech is a profesional gunsmith. Without seeing how they implimented the Sako extractor on that particular semi custom action, how or more importantly why would he comment on it?
I have to agree it sounds like trolling. It's pretty clear why a professional wouldn't comment on something they haven't checked out.
Guntech, thank you for the explanation about the Sako extractor being retrofitted to the 700 action. Excellent posts. It explained the dangers very well.
Well, Im with guntech on this. A Sako, or Stiller or a PTG after market bolt with the sako type extractor, the bolt was machined ground then hardened after the extractor recess was made( engineered). If you machine a groove into a Remington bolt, you are running the risk of making a machining flaw, (tool mark, nick) that propagate a crack then eventually a failure. This doesn't mean it will happen or ever will. It i just a risk you run. I have machined bolts for Sako extractors and don't any more(after spending a lot of money on fixtures). I recommend staying with the Remington extractor, If you have to have a Sako type get a PTG replacement bolt.
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He already did comment on the supposed strength and safety differences between the two stiller actions using the two different extractors.
Did you miss his statement below?
That answers the how part of your question,but the reason why he made that statement will likely go unanswered.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I don't think that there is any qestion that the 700 action equipped with the Sako extractor would cause serious injury in the case of a catastrophic case failure. Anyone who handloads needs to be vigilant if he has a rifle so configured. Inspect your brass every time you load it. When the primer pocket begins to show signs of enlargement, don't reload that case. Don't load with fast powders that could allow room for double charges. Choose powders on the slow side to prevent excessive pressure with your given bullet weight, should you ecounter a scale or powder measure problem.
stubblejumper, You sure have a burr up your butt!
I would think anyone with a little knowledge would be able to surmise that there is no 2 lug extractor system stronger and safer than the 700 extractor system... and that my above comment would reflect that. If you could not deduce that I am sorry.
Back when you had you 6 factory Remington bolts altered, were you fully aware of the detriments before you did that? Did you do the alterations? Did the person doing the alterations point out the detriments? Did you make an informed decision... Do you still have those bolts?
All I am doing is pointing out to new shooters some facts there should consider so they can make an informed decision. It seems so many think the alteration is one of the things they should automatically do...
I keep saying it... It is your choice, just make it an informed one.
Of course a person "could" be injured in the event of a catastrophic failure.And of course that also applies to any rifle with any type of extraction system.Do you believe that a controlled round feed rifle with a notch cut in the barrel would be stronger or safer?How about a barrel that is machined to accept a rear sight?There are millions of those around.As far as cracks or machining flaws resulting in failures are concerned,they could just as easily happen when the bolts and actions are mass produced at the factory.Even drilling and tapping the front receiver ring weakens it.There are risks whenever you fire a rifle,just as there are risks when you drive your car,but I don't see many people wearing a helmet and fire suit when driving cars on the streets.
I was fully aware that machining on a bolt would remove some of the boltface that could reduce the protection in the case of a catastrophic failure.I am also aware that there could be unseen machining flaws in the actions or bolt that could be much more of a factor.As for the people that performed the alterations,they are all well known and respected in the industry,probably as well respected as anyone on this forum,yet none had any reservations about doing the alteration.
I am all for making informed decisions,but some posts on this thread are making it sound like installing a sako extractor in a 700 bolt is an sure invitation to injury,and that only clueless people would do such a thing.I would like to see someone tell that to the people that built my rifles.
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I Just received
a return e-mail from Jerry Stiller in regards to the Sako extractor in his actions.
Here is a portion of it.
Jerry there is a thread going around on our Canadian shooting forum in regards to the Sako conversions on Rem 700's.
The question brought up is to what makes your actions SAFE with the Sako extractor versus the Rem 700 converted?
You offer your actions with the Rem 700 type extractor and the Sako correct?
Could you please inform me so I can post it on the forum.
Jerry's reply.
The sako extractor does have its issues like most other things. In a
RBRP or LBLP gun where the shooter is on the opposite side as the
port, if anything does happen it should go away from the shooter. If
a left hander is shooting a right hand gun, then the possibility
exists. In a RBLP or LBRP gun, the extractor is turned into
the action and lines up with the opposite side rail and has
no avenue to come out. I have researched how many instances
have happened and can find only a few isolated cases where
sako extractors have failed though. In a catastropic failure
where the case head will be blown off there may be an issue,
most likely with the extractor coming out as well as other
items. Like in most any type of firearm, an overloaded
round or other situation that causes this situation will have
some danger associated with it. We offer the Remington
extractor on the 308 boltface actions also. Only about 2
out of a 1000 customers want them that way. We are also
looking at using a modifed M16 style extractor in our future
actions. It would be better from this standpoint, but the main
reason we are looking at the change is that they are a little
easier to install/remove and are stronger.
If you are worried about shooting one of these, by all means
dont buy it or if you already have, return it to me and I will
refund your money if it is unused. If it has been used there
will be a small charge for the use against the refund unless there
is a functional problem.
Jerry Stiller
PS. what is the forum. i would like to read it.
a return e-mail from Jerry Stiller in regards to the Sako extractor in his actions.
Here is a portion of it.
Jerry there is a thread going around on our Canadian shooting forum in regards to the Sako conversions on Rem 700's.
The question brought up is to what makes your actions SAFE with the Sako extractor versus the Rem 700 converted?
You offer your actions with the Rem 700 type extractor and the Sako correct?
Could you please inform me so I can post it on the forum.
Jerry's reply.
The sako extractor does have its issues like most other things. In a
RBRP or LBLP gun where the shooter is on the opposite side as the
port, if anything does happen it should go away from the shooter. If
a left hander is shooting a right hand gun, then the possibility
exists. In a RBLP or LBRP gun, the extractor is turned into
the action and lines up with the opposite side rail and has
no avenue to come out. I have researched how many instances
have happened and can find only a few isolated cases where
sako extractors have failed though. In a catastropic failure
where the case head will be blown off there may be an issue,
most likely with the extractor coming out as well as other
items. Like in most any type of firearm, an overloaded
round or other situation that causes this situation will have
some danger associated with it. We offer the Remington
extractor on the 308 boltface actions also. Only about 2
out of a 1000 customers want them that way. We are also
looking at using a modifed M16 style extractor in our future
actions. It would be better from this standpoint, but the main
reason we are looking at the change is that they are a little
easier to install/remove and are stronger.
If you are worried about shooting one of these, by all means
dont buy it or if you already have, return it to me and I will
refund your money if it is unused. If it has been used there
will be a small charge for the use against the refund unless there
is a functional problem.
Jerry Stiller
PS. what is the forum. i would like to read it.
The key
though is that there is acknowledgement of the possible safety issue.
I just know that I would not do the modification to my guns.
Every time I pull the trigger on one of my centerfires I am AWARE of the power and destruction that could happen if something were to go wrong. It could happen at any time without warning.
though is that there is acknowledgement of the possible safety issue.
I just know that I would not do the modification to my guns.
Every time I pull the trigger on one of my centerfires I am AWARE of the power and destruction that could happen if something were to go wrong. It could happen at any time without warning.
If you knew what you were doing and your gunsmiths had no reservations about doing it... what is your problem? No one is criticizing you or your gunsmiths...
You made an informed decision... it is your informed choice. No one is condemning you for it nor you gunsmiths for doing it.
I apologize if you feel I have been attacking you or your choice.
My intent from the "get go" and it will continue, is to present the facts about converting the original 700 extractor ... it has nothing to do with any other manufacturer nor any gunsmith.
On Benchrest Central this was asked:
JC Blauvelt Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003Location: "Upstate" New YorkPosts: 64
Did all you guys who received a "Predator" action receive it with a Remington type extractor or a Sako type? Mine came with a Remington.
The following replies were posted:
T.P.Keeley Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006Location: South West New York StatePosts: 10
Mine has the rem extractor
Butch Lambert Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003Location: Poetry, Tex.Posts: 2165
Mine has a Sako, I really prefer the Remington.
Butch
MSLiechty Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004Location: Southern KaliforniaPosts: 70
Mines a Remington but wish I had the Sako, It's currently In Mike Bryant's care awaiting be become a .243AI.
Michael
ShelleyDavidson Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004Location: Fort Worth, TexasPosts: 889
Mines a Remington
And after having three Stiller Drop Ports with the Remington extractor I do prefer the Remington. I think that the single shots are Remington and the Repeaters are Sako but I also think they'll all be Sako in the future. I know Jerry and I discussed this but I can't remember for sure that I have those facts straight. Maybe Jerry will jump in and clarify the extractor thing.
Shelley
...but I am about done with replying to stubblejumper ... I don't think anything can be added to this thread of any value to gunnutz members...
.
The original
run of predators on 308 faces used remington clip style extractors. The mags and 223 used sako. They worked fine, but I had one hell of a time selling most of them due to the conception of the rem extractor being bad. The sako extractor is a much more popular design for aftermarket and that is what most people want. And no, that is not a reason to make a product that is deemed unsafe. I dont think the Sako is unsafe or I would not build them that way. Are they as safe as a Remington, probably not. That does not make them unsafe though. There are plenty of other aftermarket actions that are in the same boat, safe but probably not as safe as a Remington. The one thing the Sako does do better is eject. Short cases and 284 cases in the Rem are a real pain. They all tend to hang on the undercut etc. Overall I think the Sako is more foolproof. I have recently designed a modified M16 type extractor that is smaller. That may be the best of all worlds. We may go to it in the future if it works well.
I still stand by my saying above though. IF you feel uneasy, unsafe, squimish etc about shooting any of our actions, I will take them back. The last thing I want is a scared customer of one of my products.
run of predators on 308 faces used remington clip style extractors. The mags and 223 used sako. They worked fine, but I had one hell of a time selling most of them due to the conception of the rem extractor being bad. The sako extractor is a much more popular design for aftermarket and that is what most people want. And no, that is not a reason to make a product that is deemed unsafe. I dont think the Sako is unsafe or I would not build them that way. Are they as safe as a Remington, probably not. That does not make them unsafe though. There are plenty of other aftermarket actions that are in the same boat, safe but probably not as safe as a Remington. The one thing the Sako does do better is eject. Short cases and 284 cases in the Rem are a real pain. They all tend to hang on the undercut etc. Overall I think the Sako is more foolproof. I have recently designed a modified M16 type extractor that is smaller. That may be the best of all worlds. We may go to it in the future if it works well.
I still stand by my saying above though. IF you feel uneasy, unsafe, squimish etc about shooting any of our actions, I will take them back. The last thing I want is a scared customer of one of my products.
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And after Jerry explained your misconceptions as to why some people have the Remington extractor in their Stiller actions,as well as the advantages offered by the sako extractor,I think that we can put the issue to rest.
Thank you Jerry for posting.
