Remington shotguns going down hill?

NickHTK said:
LOL. Is this thread now considered officially highjacked by the Ithaca lovers?
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If this is going to be a model 37 love in, count me out:runaway:

There is a reason that Ithaca does not make them or no one picked up the design. A twenty kicks like a mag 12 and a sixteen like a 10, and the twelve is just too clunky. I doubt that even Norinco would make them if they could.:evil:
 
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12magnum said:
i think anytime something is produced in high numbers this can happen. firearms have been mass produced, based on the technology of the day, for over a hundred years.
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you can mass produce a gun yet still maintain a high level of quality.
the problem is that in the last couple of decades most gun manufacturers have taken more and more drastic cost-cutting measures.

what compounds the problem is that the consumer doesnt complain, and swallows the bullsh*t justifications and marketing surrounding the cost-cutting measures hook line and sinker:

cheap flimsy synthetic stocks: 'lightweight, tactical'
plastic triggerguards: 'ultra-lightweight, tactical'
bead-blasted POS matte bluing or matte finish: 'low-glare, tactical'
plastic receiver sleeve: 'low-friction, self-lubricating tactical composite bushing'
plastic mechanism parts in general: 'self-lubricating, rustproof'
short action using long-action receiver w/bolt stop: 'innovative receiver design'

i could go on and on. i think what infuriates me the most is when i read about 'self-lubricating, rustproof' plastic parts on a rifle. its a goddamn POS m#@$erfu#$ing plastic garbage part, and people should be demanding better, but they swallow the marketing bullsh*t. (sorry this is a real sore point for me)

i own a few 'tactical' rifles, but honestly IMO the tactical fad of the last couple decades is what killed gun quality. 'tactical' was a godsend for firearms manufacturers since they could now pass off sh*t plastic parts instead of metal and wood. they could now take a barrel and action straight off the mill and bead blast the sh*t out of it, then spraypaint it black with some cheap gun coat finish, and it sold like hotcakes because it was 'tactical'. people actually preferred the rust-magnet matte bluing and a cheap plastic stock. ive lost count of how many new guns i have examined whose matte blued crappy finish is already rusting in their factory boxes.

an 18 year old new shooter going out and buying a new shotgun will pick up a Remington 870 Express synthetic and assume that this is a quality gun because of the pedigree and praise the 870 has gotten over the last half century, and because he has little basis of comparison other than other new production guns which share the same cost-cutting features. if he picked up an old wingmaster (not a new one) alongside it, he would realise that theyre not even remotely the same gun.

unfortunately the consumer is to blame for the state of factory gun quality, materials and fit & finish today.
 
manbearpig said:
you can mass produce a gun yet still maintain a high level of quality.
the problem is that in the last couple of decades most gun manufacturers have taken more and more drastic cost-cutting measures.

what compounds the problem is that the consumer doesnt complain, and swallows the bullsh*t justifications and marketing surrounding the cost-cutting measures hook line and sinker:

cheap flimsy synthetic stocks: 'lightweight, tactical'
plastic triggerguards: 'ultra-lightweight, tactical'
bead-blasted POS matte bluing or matte finish: 'low-glare, tactical'
plastic receiver sleeve: 'low-friction, self-lubricating tactical composite bushing'
plastic mechanism parts in general: 'self-lubricating, rustproof'
short action using long-action receiver w/bolt stop: 'innovative receiver design'

i could go on and on. i think what infuriates me the most is when i read about 'self-lubricating, rustproof' plastic parts on a rifle. its a goddamn POS m#@$erfu#$ing plastic garbage part, and people should be demanding better, but they swallow the marketing bullsh*t. (sorry this is a real sore point for me)

i own a few 'tactical' rifles, but honestly IMO the tactical fad of the last couple decades is what killed gun quality. 'tactical' was a godsend for firearms manufacturers since they could now pass off sh*t plastic parts instead of metal and wood. they could now take a barrel and action straight off the mill and bead blast the sh*t out of it, then spraypaint it black with some cheap gun coat finish, and it sold like hotcakes because it was 'tactical'. people actually preferred the rust-magnet matte bluing and a cheap plastic stock. ive lost count of how many new guns i have examined whose matte blued crappy finish is already rusting in their factory boxes.

an 18 year old new shooter going out and buying a new shotgun will pick up a Remington 870 Express synthetic and assume that this is a quality gun because of the pedigree and praise the 870 has gotten over the last half century, and because he has little basis of comparison other than other new production guns which share the same cost-cutting features. if he picked up an old wingmaster (not a new one) alongside it, he would realise that theyre not even remotely the same gun.

unfortunately the consumer is to blame for the state of factory gun quality, materials and fit & finish today.
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It is hard to argue with a single point you make, especially your last line.
 
Covey Ridge said:
If this is going to be a model 37 love in, count me out:runaway:

There is a reason that Ithaca does not make them or no one picked up the design. A twenty kicks like a mag 12 and a sixteen like a 10, and the twelve is just too clunky. I doubt that even Norinco would make them if they could.:evil:
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Ah, but alas Norinco does reproduce the Model 37....

The design, correct me if I'm wrong .. started with Browning, then Remington "knocks it off" :D as the model 17 & 31 and then Ithaca takes over with the 37.
 
ryanloco said:
Ah, but alas Norinco does reproduce the Model 37....

The design, correct me if I'm wrong .. started with Browning, then Remington "knocks it off" :D as the model 17 & 31 and then Ithaca takes over with the 37.
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I might be wrong here but I believe that John Browning designed it for Remington as the 17, with Ithaca waiting for the patent to expire for the 37.
 
Covey Ridge said:
If this is going to be a model 37 love in, count me out:runaway:

There is a reason that Ithaca does not make them or no one picked up the design. A twenty kicks like a mag 12 and a sixteen like a 10, and the twelve is just too clunky. I doubt that even Norinco would make them if they could.:evil:
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The only reason it may kick harder than most is because it is lighter than most... can't have both.

As for clunky... thats an 870 your thinking about.

Anyway, no love in here, just dissapointment with the 870... tried a bunch, and all didn't feel to smoot or fit me well, and the fine detail just wasn't there. More unnerving may be the fact that each felt different than the other (poor QC and tolerance matching), obviously why one person gets a gem, the other a demon.
 
ryanloco said:
Ah, but alas Norinco does reproduce the Model 37....

The design, correct me if I'm wrong .. started with Browning, then Remington "knocks it off" :D as the model 17 & 31 and then Ithaca takes over with the 37.
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I think IchBinEinSniper or IchBinEinSchneiper got it, but has Norinco reproduced it?
 
IchBinEinSniper said:
The only reason it may kick harder than most is because it is lighter than most... can't have both.

As for clunky... thats an 870 your thinking about.

QUOTE]

I have shot lighter 20's that havn't been as brutal. The 686 Beretta comes to mind. You're right the 870 express is KLUNKY! and as someone else metioned, they are rust magnets.
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My 870's been great to me, never a problem. I will agree that the matte finish is terrible for rusting though. It's difficult to oil because the rough surface doesn't let you spread the oil that well. With a smooth finish and a slightly better stock, the gun would be almost perfect.

Functionally however, my experiences have been that the gun is perfect.
 
Ah, is there anything that Wikipedia doesn't know...

Designed by the famous fireams designers John Browning and John Pedersen, the gun was initially marketed as the Remington Model 17. The Model 17 was a 20-gauge weapon of trim proportions, later redesigned and refined into the popular Remington Model 31. That gun would eventually be replaced in production by the excellent Remington 870 which is still produced to this day.

Following the First World War, the Ithaca Gun Company was searching for a pump-action shotgun to produce, primarily to compete with the Winchester Model 12. They settled on waiting for Remington Model 17 patents to expire. After gearing for production of the Ithaca model 33, they discovered more Pedersen patents that would not expire until 1937; along with the introduction date, they changed the model designation from 33 to 37.

With the depression dragging on and war looming on the horizon, it was possibly the worst time to introduce a sporting arm. That this shotgun survived World War II is a testament to the soundness of the design. Many sporting arms ceased production entirely during the same period. While Ithaca did produce some shotguns for military use during the war, they also produced M1911 pistols and M3 Grease Guns.

After WW-II, Ithaca resumed production of the Model 37. Made in many different models, the Ithaca 37 has the longest production run for a pump-action shotgun in history, surpassing that of the Winchester Model 12 that had originally inspired Ithaca to produce pump-action shotguns. Ithaca has suffered many setbacks in its history, changing hands numerous times. At one time, the Ithaca 37 was renamed the Model 87, although it was soon changed back in one of many ownership changes. Production paused in 2005 when Ithaca once again changed hands. Production has resumed in Ohio.
 
fwm said:
I can't comment on the older guns, but I have a 20ga Express with the laminate stock that's 2 yrs old. I think the quality is good for the price I paid, although I would like to see 3 chokes included instead of 1. As an aside, I hope that those complaining of the quality of winchester, Browning, Remington etc aren't heading afield carring Norinco, or other cheap knockoff guns, because I believe that is a huge part of the problem. With the number of shooters and sportsman falling as it is, to have that kind of competition for the market that's left really pressures our North American manufacturers to cut corners, to compete. I'm not saying competition is bad, but these are clones of another company's products without paying royalties, or having to develop their own. Sorry to make this so long, but this invasion from the East bothers me, because I would like to continue to work and live in North America.
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X a MILLION!!!! Very well put!!!
 
I was just at the gunstore looking at the shotguns and noticed a Bakail short double barrel. It had Baikal written on the underside. The first thing I noticed was the poor cut of the ends of the barrel. Looked like they were cut with a blunt axe. The next thing I noticed was that it had Remington written on the side of the receiver. why would you want to associate a name such as remington on a such a POS shotgun?
 
"Quality has been on a downward slide..."

So does anyone have anything that resembles evidence? Or is everything based exclusively on anecdotal evidence? Typically only the sqeaky wheel is heard. In this case people with less that perfect product complain (and rightfully so) about the performance of the gun that they have spent so much money on.

Is there a "JD Power" for guns like there is for cars? Is there a shred of documented evidence that quality has decreased over the last 100yrs? Or is it perhaps that instead of producing 10,000 hand made guns a year with 10% poor quality translating to 1000 bad guns to 500,000 made every year with 3% meaning 15,000 problem guns and thus more complaints despite the improved quality? Im just curious to see if there is anything out there other than "My friend Bob said that his...."

Personally I love my Rem 870 express supermag. Paid 360.00 for it and it has treated me well and I suspect if I do my part by maintaining/cleaning it it will for years to come.

Pipe
 
I believe that is a huge part of the problem. With the number of shooters and sportsman falling as it is, to have that kind of competition for the market that's left really pressures our North American manufacturers to cut corners, to compete.
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If this is the case, and the NA manufacturers have to cut corners to compete... then wouldn't you have to accept the fact that companies like Norinco or Marlin (who import shotguns from China) are making/selling a quality product, at least enough to be competitive in the entry level pump market? If the quality of the Chinese arms were really so bad.. then

1. No one would really buy these foreign shotguns, Marstar and like companies would never be sold out.. there would be no pressure because they really could NOT compete.

2. As some have suggested that the Chinese quality is so bad.... thank god then, if we ever go to war with them we'll only need to wait out the first year for their weapons to break and then it should be clear sailing!!!


I'm not knocking Remington. I have 2 friends that just bought 870 supermags and they seem to function flawlessly, another with an older 870 slug gun with no complaints. I have a 7600 and love it, as well as using their copper solid sabots in my Rinco!
 
Remington are switching production to overseas.

The new rifle lines are made by oversea manufacturers and God knows how many ammo are just imported and labeled as Remington.

There is nothing we can do. The management is making the kill, just like Ford and GM.
 
Most of the knocks against Remington come from buyers of the lower price end of guns who have very little experience with guns period and much less with the proper care and maintaining of guns period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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