Reversing FMJ bullets

[ben hunchak]

The work done by Hatcher was on boat tail bullets where less then 1/2 of the gases were directed against the throat of the rifle, in this case all the gases(100%) are directed against the rifling/throat area.

 

[blacksmithden]

I doubt that any conservation officer will take your ammunition apart.

+1 I've never heard of any CO destroying someones personal property just to check it. I wonder if they bring a hack saw to cut off the barrels to verify the caliber too???

 

[Boomer]

That's exactly what I was thinking Ben, a pointed "boat-tail" has to direct the propellant gases directly at the bore, and I suspect bore wear would be rapid. On Wildcat Bullets web page there is a good article about the proper boat-tail design.

As for the legality of the ammunition, the nose of the bullet would be an "Open Point Truncated Cone" which is perfectly legal IMHO. When it comes to the discussion about the legality of this or that type of bullet, the only bullet that is really defined is a military full metal case. There are so many types of bullets designs suitable for hunting now, that I believe it would be pretty tough for the crown to win a conviction on what a CO thought was an "illegal" bullet. Cast lead bullets are legal, yet most of them have no mechanism for expansion. X bullets have a mechanism for expansion, but they could fall into a FMJ classification. The mono-metal solids are very similar to the X bullets except, like cast bullets, they have no mechanism for expansion. It would be an interesting time in court to see who prevailed and why.

 

[Winnipeg Toymaker]

I have never suggested anyone altering any caliber of ammo, I think the risk is not worth the effort.. What was said was that in my Province....just simple possession of FMJ bullets are not allowed during hunting season. Turning the bullet around does not change what it is. And Wardens do pull ammo apart at the lab...If it looks suspicious, and beleive me they know what "altered" ammo looks like, they have ways of proving the ammo was turned. There is such an obvious difference between the shape of a boat tail bullet when looking from either end....

 

[str8shot]

And Wardens do pull ammo apart at the lab...If it looks suspicious, and beleive me they know what "altered" ammo looks like, they have ways of proving the ammo was turned.

You're still not getting it, huh?
If the end you're point at the animal is not fully covered in a jacket, it's not FMJ, it's a soft point.If you like your bullets with a ridiculously long, extremely tapered boat tail, and a weird trajectory, that's up to you.
I still prefer to use the right bullet for the job, but if someone wants to use them this way it's up to them.Again if the end facing the animal is a soft lead point , then it wouldn't be illegal to use, by the letter of the law.
Scott

 

[hs4570]

FMJ reversed

Shooting reversed spitzer fmj s' has been around since WW 1 (1914-18). Numerous articles have appeared in Gun magazines back in the late 1960's and early 70s' about this useage and has no doubt been tested by thousands of people before I got around to doing it in the late 70's.

I had free access to a lot of .308 IVI hardball and took some of it down and replaced the 147 gr FMJBTL with 150 gr. Hornadys' for hunting. The service load would shoot about 1.5 inch/100 yds and the Hornady did the same. No idea what the velocity was then as no one had a chronograph.

Seeing these btlspz. had a hollow base with exposed lead ...lead me to load up the first 20 pack reversed. As the bullet stuck deeper down into the case I reduced the 43+/- grns.of military powder by 4 grains and worked up. Accuracy came at about 41.0 grains and any thing higher showed beginings of pressure signs. (Twenty years later this chrony'd to about 2530 fps in 18.5 inch brl.)

Mild steel plates...&.. Wheel rims ..shot at 100yards with fmj s' were cratered and had pass throughs....and reversed ...they blew through like a die punch with no cratering on impact side. Testing these reversed loads in piles of the ubiquitous telephone books used in those days was done and they ended up mushrooming nicely.

Many years later I acquired a Mini 14 and did the same work up with .223 Hardball BTails'....same results.

Reversed Boatails worked best for accuracy as with Flat base you have to seat them deeper into the case than BTails to close the bolt/action

Have no idea and don't care if doing this causes gas issues to the bore....everything I shoot down the bore causes effects/wear.

..edit

and for those who would like an fmj for their .24...25...26..27..7mm calibers but aren't available...buy a match type boattail HPt. in desired caliber( no lead tips !) reverse same and work up a load.

 

[Winnipeg Toymaker]

STR8.......Again....read the post...."possession of FMJ "bullets" are not allowed while hunting....does it say..." FMJ AMMO" ????? ....Load what you wish...turn them if you want....BUT...in the end no matter which end ( by your own interpretation) is pointed at an animal and is "legal"???? the "bullet is still "FMJ" .... better still..... show a sample to a CO and ask them while you hunt in Man.

 

[bufalobill]

S.."possession of FMJ "bullets" are not allowed while hunting....does it say..." FMJ AMMO" ????? ....Load what you wish...turn them if you want....BUT...in the end no matter which end ( by your own interpretation) is pointed at an animal and is "legal"???? the "bullet is still "FMJ" ....

You're missing the point.

1. the boat tail of the FMJ in question is not completely covered in copper. It has an exposed lead base...ergo legal. (soft point)

2. if you turn a SP around in the case, you would only have a FMJ exposed projectile... ergo illegal. (hard point)

It has nothing to do with the portion of the bullet that you can't see, but the portion of the bullet that comes into contact with the target first.

And FWIW, illegal anyhow in SK to hunt gamebirds with a CF rifle.

 

[Winnipeg Toymaker]

I did not miss the point...a FMJ "bullet" cannot be described as anything but a "FMJ"...point whichever end you want...but the "description" of it never changes. I can in one instance tell you of a hunter using a FMJ...the warden seeing the deer go down and checked the hunter for licence etc. As the "hunter" was gutting the deer, the "bullet" dropped out the warden asked to see it....instant seizure....How could the hunter tell the warden..."I shot the deer with the bullet backwards"...." Open end first.... ????. That was the point....Do it if you want...but in the end the "projectile" is still FMJ.

 

[BCboy]

I did not miss the point...a FMJ "bullet" cannot be described as anything but a "FMJ"...point whichever end you want...but the "description" of it never changes. I can in one instance tell you of a hunter using a FMJ...the warden seeing the deer go down and checked the hunter for licence etc. As the "hunter" was gutting the deer, the "bullet" dropped out the warden asked to see it....instant seizure....How could the hunter tell the warden..."I shot the deer with the bullet backwards"...." Open end first.... ????. That was the point....Do it if you want...but in the end the "projectile" is still FMJ.

So now what you are saying if I have a box/bag of 150gr 308 FMJs ,plain bullets in component form not even loaded in the shell ,just a Plain bullet, something that cannot even fire in my possesion or on my persons they are gonna seize your stuff................. I really dont think so ,what are you going to do ? throw them at an animal? I am sure that would stick in court , The wardon would have no case and would look like a total moron

as for your idea with the bullet falling out??????

If you shoot it FMJ side out ,you would be really lucky to recover it as it would most likely go right through ..............

But if you shot it lead side out , I will bet you a case of beer that the expansion of the bullet will tell you ,the wardon and there lab witch way the bullet was facing when leaving the barrel , if the jacket even stayed on the bullet.

 

[CV32]

Toymaker, I think you are getting hung up on what constitutes a FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) bullet, and forgetting for a moment why it is prohibited for use in hunting. Such regulations are not meant to be interpreted in a vacuum.

A jacketed bullet with an exposed lead base, turned around in the cartridge so that that exposed lead faces forward, is not an FMJ bullet and will not perform like a FMJ bullet when it strikes game. The purpose of the regulation, as I'm sure you know, is to ensure the use of expanding ammunition for hunting.

Here in Newfoundland, the regulations say we can't use "fully metal cased non-exploding bullet or ball commonly known as service ammunition". I don't know about you, but if I'm restricted to using only "exploding" bullets, I'm probably not going to be doing much hunting.

 

[Wrong Way]

We find the stupidest things to argue about.....holy cow.

If you spin the bullet around:
Lead exposed pointing out the end: Legal, NOT "FMJ".
Lead curled back in a mushroom shape when recovered from animal: Legal, NOT FMJ

It's not rocket science...really, it isn't. If you take a hunting bullet like a sirroco (legal...right?) and turn IT around, guess what...it's now a "FMJ" NO lead exposed, NO mushroom effect, Illegal.

It's not WHAT is shot at the animal, but HOW.

 

[tommyg]

I would have some concerns about all the burning gases being directed to the rifling and up along side the bullet, causing among other things, premature barrel wear. I don't know if this type of testing has been done or what the results would be, but I would just use the right bullet for the job, and not try to induce anyone with less experience to try these "stunts".

lets look at this a little differently for a 7.62/51 NATO round the barrel bore dimemsions are:

Ø lands = 7.62 mm, Ø grooves = 7.82 mm( from wikipedia)

bullet diameter is 7.8mm leaving .01 mm (+or-machining tolerances) around the bullet for smooth operation.

The primer explosion actually pushes the bullet into the leade and out of the case of the cartridge before the powder ignites. As pressure rises, the bullet is compressed longitudinally causing radial expansion, sealing the barrel bore from the hot gasses.
With 95-100% case filling the powder deflagrates from primer to bullet, the surface area perpendicular to the bore( in the same direction of bullet travel) that the gases act upon, is the same for the flat based bullet and the backwards bullet ( think of those collapseable drinking cups that are made of a series of concentric interlocking rings). the actual wear in a barrel comes from the friction of the bullet , during the first moments of travel down the barrel, before the rifling starts to impart a spin on it. the bullet actually shears across the lands of the bore, it is in these first few inches of a barrel that the rest of the powder ignites creating more heat and pressure. wear is further exagerated as the next round fired as the barrel steel is closer to temperature in its inelastic deformation range.

now that shape of the backward bullet may cause some increased localized vortecies that cause increased flow velocity and greater erosion of the barrel but this would not be apparent for many, many rounds.

tg

 

[Suputin]

I would be worried that the jacket would come off the lead and stay in the bbl, with the large lead area .

With all the gas pressure behind the bullet how could the jacket possibly separate from the core? It is the jacket that is pushing the rest down the barrel.

On the FMJ controversy, if the bullet has an exposed lead base then it is by definition not a FULL metal jacket is it?

the "bullet" dropped out the warden asked to see it....instant seizure....How could the hunter tell the warden..."I shot the deer with the bullet backwards"...." Open end first.... ????.

Bullets fired into things will show obvious signs/deformations indicating which way they hit. The idea of a completely perfect, undamaged bullet dropping out of an animal is ludricrous.

 

[Winnipeg Toymaker]

No one said the bullet was intact....your assumption lead to statements that are unnecessary....you were not present...I was....the copper coating of the bullet was nearly complete and could not be interpreted as anything but FMJ. i have hunted for over 40 years and have recovered many " bullets or facsimilies" from game. It does happen and the time I saw it was one of these times. This post is getting stale as one sees turning a "bullet" would change what it is. i do not care which end you point towards an animal...

 

[bufalobill]

By your argument then, a Sierra 150g round nose is indeed a FMJ, no matter how it is loaded.

Heavens to betsy, I need to pull all my bullets and switch to cast just in case one happens to fall out of an animal at the CO's feet and then he will know it had a full copper base and I'll get thrown in jail and he'll take the rest of my ammo and test it in his super secret lab and then throw me in jail.

Or if I'm lucky, he'll just shoot me and leave me in the ditch to rot.

 

[CV32]

For Pete's sake, someone needs to post a pic of an FMJ bullet turned around in its case to show an exposed lead core. Maybe a pic of one next to a regular lead flat nose.

 

[Winnipeg Toymaker]

Just to clarify....the fact is that whether the "FMJ projectile" is pointy end out or turned so that the flat lead end is out....the cartridge is still loaded with a FMJ projectile. I for one can really see the difference between a regular factory load and a turned one. Do you think it would fool a CO....I really do not think so.... And lets not get silly....this has been a great discussion and both sides delivering on thier points but ridiculous statements just make it a joke.

the main jist of the post was that if a FMJ is turned lead side out in a cartridge...does it change the fact that the projectile was FMJ.....Even if the projectile hit the game "lead side" first....does it change the fact that the projectile was FMJ......As i see it and seem to be the only one....that loaded cartridge with a FMJ bullet no matter which way it is placed...is still a FMJ loaded cartridge...IMO...

As for carrying loose FMJ bullets....you may get asked why you carry them if you do not intend to use them. Maybe it would not stand up in a court as such but intent may be shown..then it is up to the judge to rule. I do not even pretend to guess what a CO will do nor the courts... Lots of hypotheticals....but worth the risk?????? why not buy or load the right ammo to start with?

 

[Dawson Keen]

Good answer Winnipeg Toymaker!!!!!

 

[Why not?]

I would like to see the appropriate section of the regulations posted here. Exactly how does the entire paragraph read?

I have a very difficult time understanding how a bullet loaded into ammunition with an exposed lead nose could possibly be considered FMJ.

Ted