RIC in .450CF - Safe to shoot .455 webley?

Brobee

Brobee

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Hello everyone,

I am new to the antique/bp world and have recently acquired my second pistol - an RIC webley that's marked for .450CF. I'm having trouble researching info on the .450CF cartridge and am hoping there are some guys with some experience here that might be able to help educate me.

My first question is whether or not it is safe to shoot .455 webley factory loaded rounds in this revolver? Is it ok to handload to .455 webley specifications?

Secondly, when handloading, what type of loads would you recommend (either for .455 webley if it's ok, or how to load for .450CF if .455 webley is the big no-no)?

Thanks for your help,

Cheers,

Brobee
 
You will find most guns marked 450 will chamber and cycle 455 Fiochhi and 455 Hornady ammo.
Ric is a tough soild frame gun and can take a decent load. all my RICs handled the factory Fiochhi but you will get alot of guys tell you its to hot ect for theses Webleys.
I have never had any issiues with fiochhi in any pre 1898 guns.
the fiochhi case rims are thiner than the older 455 ammo so try and get some empty fiochhi cases to start with then reload them.
5 grs of unique is a safe load behind a 250 slug. you can start at 4 grs if you like.
The older longer Domion 455 ammo wont fit or cycle in most 450 marked guns.
this is just what i have seen in the 5 or 6 RICs ive had.
 
.450cf = .450 Adams,.450 Revolver and a couple more.
45 Long Colt trimmed to length work just fine in the 450's I have/have had...although you trim off more than you leave.
The beauty of this stubby case is you can use the full capacity with smokeless...
 
Here's a case diagram for you:

cabd590933.jpg
 
Double check how deep the chambering is on your gun because I think the .450 case is slightly shorter than a .455 mk-2 case, there is a small chance that the crimp of the .455 round could sit in the taper of the throat of a .450 chamber (but I bet that is not the case)
 
My RIC will not accept .455 Mk. II cases unless they are trimmed a bit.
Rims are a bit different, probably doesn't matter.
I've made cases from .45 Colt. Work fine, more effort than using .455s.
 
you can also get 450 fiocci ammo . 455 would not fit in my 450 had to shorten and turn the rims but mine was a webley bull dog. your RIC may take the MKII CASES JUST FINE
 
I got some 450 corto fiochi and it is much much lighter then the 455. Don't know if Corto is the same as 450 webley?

You might want to load the proper ammo for the RIC if only so that it hits somewhere close to point of aim. You probabley will find the 455 hits very low even at RIC distances.

IMHO sell the 455 ammo and reload 450 ammo to original specs. You cannot go wrong shooting the ammo the gun was designed for. Having ammo that prints low means that you can't see your target to aim at it. Hitting high is less of a problem.
 
david doyle said:
I got some 450 corto fiochi and it is much much lighter then the 455. Don't know if Corto is the same as 450 webley?

You might want to load the proper ammo for the RIC if only so that it hits somewhere close to point of aim. You probabley will find the 455 hits very low even at RIC distances.

IMHO sell the 455 ammo and reload 450 ammo to original specs. You cannot go wrong shooting the ammo the gun was designed for. Having ammo that prints low means that you can't see your target to aim at it. Hitting high is less of a problem.
Click to expand...

That's my opinion too. Barrels and cylinders on RIC .455/.476 revolvers are heavier than on the .450 RICs I have seen.

The factory Fiocchi .455 MKII ammo is pretty hot stuff, i personally wouldn't shoot it in a .450 RIC. .450 uses a lighter bullet than the .455.
 
jethunter said:
That's my opinion too. Barrels and cylinders on RIC .455/.476 revolvers are heavier than on the .450 RICs I have seen.

The factory Fiocchi .455 MKII ammo is pretty hot stuff, i personally wouldn't shoot it in a .450 RIC. .450 uses a lighter bullet than the .455.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY the 450 I beleive was only loaded to about 650 fps
 
Thank you all for the very helpful advice!

I went out yesterday and bought some .45 colt brass I'll turn down to 0.705 (as well as shave 0.010 off the inside of the rim); will handload something gentle for the RIC.

I picked up a pound of unique, but have alot of clays on hand...anyone have any experience with light loads of clays??

Thanks again!

Brobee
 
Brobee said:
Hello everyone,

I am new to the antique/bp world and have recently acquired my second pistol - an RIC webley that's marked for .450CF. I'm having trouble researching info on the .450CF cartridge and am hoping there are some guys with some experience here that might be able to help educate me.

My first question is whether or not it is safe to shoot .455 webley factory loaded rounds in this revolver? Is it ok to handload to .455 webley specifications?

Secondly, when handloading, what type of loads would you recommend (either for .455 webley if it's ok, or how to load for .450CF if .455 webley is the big no-no)?

Thanks for your help,

Cheers,

Brobee
Click to expand...

That .455MkII Fiocchi ammo is pretty hot stuff, and the bullets are hard as rocks. They penetrate several inches of hemlock without even deforming! I'd avoid using that stuff in any older revolvers. Frankly, I wouldn't even shoot it frequently in my best Mk. VI.
 
Ok...so I've finally finished parting, chamfering, and rim-thinning a big mountain of .45 long colt brass down to .450cf spec (and as an aside....just as I was finishing I came into a large lot of hornady .455 webley brass which all I had to do was part down slightly...at least now I have a tonne of brass!) and am ready to start load development.

In acquiring my antiques, I've decided to go mono-caliber: .450cf. I've found a couple of Webley RIC MPs and also have a couple of Webley No2 British Bulldogs.

Vis a vis projectiles I'm getting rigged up to swage my own soft lead, hollow base .455 bullets, and in the interim am planning on using hornady cowboy action shooting bullets that measure .452.

My current dillema is that I'm having a bit of trouble deciding which powder to use...despite the increased hazards associated with it's use, I really want to go smokeless. I read with a great deal of interest the stickies at the top of the antique section, and it looks like lots of folks are using unique, yet there might be greater safety margins were a guy to go the Alliant 2400 route (to match the burn rate/pressure curve of bp).

What are your folks thoughts?? Unique?? 2400?? Experiences (both positive and negative would be appreciated!)??

Thanks for all your help,

Cheers,

Brobee
 
Unique works well with low pressure loads and is popular for use in antiques, I have used it in a bunch of antique guns with good results, and I always fully sized the brass before seating and put a roll crimp. Unique is intended to be functional at pressures suited to antiques, if you look in a reloading manual for shotgun it is used with loads between 7000-10000psi. Some powders are slower burning but aren't intended to work at low pressure. I havn't tried 2400 but I read that it works best for max velocity loads. If your barrel's groove diameter and chamber throats measure the same then you don't need hollow base bullets. Whatever smokeless you use, a double charge will probably blow up the gun.
 
It is worth noting, that the older Webley revolvers don't have a hardened breech plate. When they started using smokeless, they went to a replaceable, hardened breech plate, and a larger cylinder. My rule of thumb when dealing with antiques, is if it was designed with smokeless in mind, I use smokeless. If it was designed for BP, I use BP.

I have found that most of the time, the guns work best using loads as close to the original specs as possible. (big surprise...) I also made up some .455Mk.1 using BP for my Mk.VI, and I was very pleased with the results. The thing about using smokeless, many antique guns have very little safety margin. Even from the Quality British makers, the iron used wasn't always the greatest material available. I would suggest reading the period books by W.W. Greener, you'll never look at an antique British gun the same again!

US guns were no better, with many of the older Colts being made from the exact same material as British guns. Anyway, the point is, a double charge of ANY smokeless powder WILL ruin a valuable antique, and even a 1 1/2 charge could do it. If you really must use smokeless for some reason, use Trailboss. It is bulky enough that a double charge should be impossible.

When loading .455 for my Mk. VI, using Bullseye, I never use the powder measure. I always charge each case individually, first turning it over to make sure it is indeed empty, then weighing the charge. The charge is poured in, and the bullet seated immediately. It's slow, but assuming the scale is accurate, this method pretty much eliminates the risk of an overcharge. You can't be too careful!
 
unique is one of the best i found for webleys.
4.5 grs of unique with a 265 gr HB webley bullet works.
you can use Keith 250 SWCs to and same powder charge.
Only in guns in ex condition not pitted clunkers.....

Slug the bore so you can size the bullets so there not way to big as that will raise presure if your pushing a .455 bullet down a .451 bore.
Most MKIs and MKIIs ive checked were only .452 Max bore Dia yet we shoot 455 dia bullets thru them all the time.
I found the SWC 250 gr sized .452 work great in Metros Rics ect...
 
dingus said:
unique is one of the best i found for webleys.
4.5 grs of unique with a 265 gr HB webley bullet works.
you can use Keith 250 SWCs to and same powder charge.
Only in guns in ex condition not pitted clunkers.....

Slug the bore so you can size the bullets so there not way to big as that will raise presure if your pushing a .455 bullet down a .451 bore.
Most MKIs and MKIIs ive checked were only .452 Max bore Dia yet we shoot 455 dia bullets thru them all the time.
I found the SWC 250 gr sized .452 work great in Metros Rics ect...
Click to expand...

Excellent advice and it is only worth adding that jacketed bullets are not your friend in these old revolvers. Barrel metal is soft and the jacket will wear hard on what rifling is left, as well as raising pressures.
 
I appreciate (and am thankfully acutely aware of) people's advice regarding likely catastrophic failure resulting from a double charge of smokeless in one of these old guns...my plan to address this is as follows: after mass brass preparation and priming, I'll trickle/weigh a powder charge, transfer to a case, then immediately seat/crimp a bullet into the case round 1 at a time. I have an RCBS Chargemaster Combo (trickler integrated with a digital scale) so provided I don't tell the scale to dole out too much, going slow like this should be difficult to screw up.

My concern about smokeless is more related to the discussion in the following thread:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249992

For me, the most interesting posts in the above thread were made by Win 38-55 in his re-cantation of material on matching the smokeless burn rate as closely as possible to that of genuine black powder, hence the selection of Alliant 2400 as it is most closely matched vis a vis burn rate.

Also interesting were the pressure/time curves he posted later on in the thread. Faster burning smokeless powders (such as trailboss) build pressure much more quickly which seems intrinsically more dangerous and sensitive to small deviations in powder charge.

Despite that very interesting discussion, it seems like more folks who choose to risk smokeless in their antique pistols are using faster burning powders. Trailboss seems to be an extreme example of this, the ever-popular Unique is not as fast but still seemingly much faster than 2400, and blue dot is also faster but getting closer.

Has anyone experimented with both 2400 and unique, and if so, what were your observations? For those that use one or the other, I'd also be very interested in reading about whatever your experience was, positive or negative.

I'm not too worried about my holster sized RIC MP, but comparing it's beefiness to the much lighter Webley No2 (both are chambered in .450) I would be really grateful for the first hand experience of someone using either powder in the smaller sized No2.

Thanks,

Brobee
 
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