Rifle maker from Toronto......EPP....not Elwood Epps!

D

Dantforth

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I have been offered a beautifully built Hawken ML which has the makers mark " EPP Toronto" on the barrel. Rifle has nice wood and some decorative inlays. Does anyone have any information which might assist me as to the era that this person made rifles and how prolific he was? It appears to be .45 caliber.
Thanks, David
 
Plinker 777.....I am not posting here to provide photos for anyone. I am not asking a question here which would require a photo. I also did not have a camera when I saw the rifle. If I buy it I will post photos. In the meantime I am trying to find info on the maker. David
 
Ok, I'll answer you this way.

I have been building muzzle loaders (traditional style including Hawken's) for a good number of years. I am unaware of any "commercial level" builder that ever existed in Toronto going back to the 1970's. In fact, there is probably less than half a dozen traditional black powder builders in Canada that have reached to point of being "recognized" in the Traditional community.

What you probably have is one that was built by a hobbyist such as myself. I know I didn't build it because I simply stamp GAL (my initials) and a two digit year code on the barrels that I source. Many of us hobby builders that sell a few rifles do stamp our barrels "somewhere", usually on the bottom flat.

I would suggest if you want details on the rifle you will need to ask the owner where they got it from and then even possibly the previous owner where they got it from to try and track down the individual that built it - and again, you are probably not going to get a company name or a store front, it will probably be an individual. Alternately, that could be the initials and location of the individual that the rifle was "built for".

Posting a picture, as suggested, would at give you the opportunity to figure out (maybe) who built the barrel, the lock, the triggers and if the furniture (hardware) was sourced from one of the traditional builder's suppliers or was home made. It also may be possible to determine if the builder used a "kit", a pre-shaped stock or built it from scratch.

All of that can help determine the value and possible quality of the build.

These are not treated or valued like say a Rem 700 ADL which had thousands come off the production line. This has to be looked at as (possibly) a one off custom build by a unknown or relatively unknown maker - so the "builder" may not add much value to rifle in this case making "what parts" were used essential in determining a reasonable value providing the rifle is otherwise serviceable and the bore is in decent shape.

If for example it has one of the cheap locks that were being sold in the 70's and it broke a mainspring you would have to get the replacement part "made" for you. If it has a Chambers or L&R lock on it you can order parts from the builder - that kind of information/availability factors heavily into the value of the rifle. And if it's a Spanish barrel re-purposed off an old CVA it might simply be a wall hanger...

PS - you note some decorative "inlays" which would NOT be typical on a Hawken - is it possibly you are referring to a half-stock rifle that kinda/sorta looks like a Hawken but is in fact something else? - that can also effect value/desirability. The production traditional style rifles that were mass produced often had "Hawken" somewhere in their name because the companies were trying to capitalize on the Hawken craze of the 70's but their rifles looked about as much like a Hawken as a VW Bug looks like a pick-up truck...
 
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Bob Seymour and John Clark come to mind as custom builders in the GTA in the 70s. John could be reached through Clark Industries (Tottenham). He might remember the maker.
 
I think Dave clearly stated , he was looking for information which might assist him as to the era that this person made rifles and how prolific he was? Followed by , he did not have a camera with him. To post a response like this = " and you're far more patient with someone who won't so much as take the trouble to post a pic to help us answer his vague questions." Seems a bit crusty to me !
 
triggerman42 said:
I think Dave clearly stated , he was looking for information which might assist him as to the era that this person made rifles and how prolific he was? Followed by , he did not have a camera with him. To post a response like this = " and you're far more patient with someone who won't so much as take the trouble to post a pic to help us answer his vague questions." Seems a bit crusty to me !
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Maybe, but I think the OP's response before the line of not having a camera with him was even more snobbish, that being " I am not posting here to provide photos to anyone" . and "I am not asking a question here which would require a photo". Now that is quite snobbish to me. A photo certainly wouldn't have hurt in trying to identify a maker, especially if no luck was being found with what little information was given. Maybe someone could recognize certain traits of the rifle which could possibly give a clue to who the maker was. This just shows how a photo might help. As it turns out he didn't have a camera. He could have just stated that instead of the other bit of snobbery before that line.
 
I guess I just didn't see any snobbery in the original question. I thought he was trying to be clear and precise . He was trying to find info on the maker. Not the gun. Anyway , I'm not going to argue apples and oranges. Opinions are like foreheads. Everybody's got one.
I have no knowledge on Canadian M/L makers , and can't contribute constructively , so I'm moving on down the road. ..Cheers
 
triggerman42 said:
I guess I just didn't see any snobbery in the original question. I thought he was trying to be clear and precise . He was trying to find info on the maker. Not the gun. Anyway , I'm not going to argue apples and oranges. Opinions are like foreheads. Everybody's got one.
I have no knowledge on Canadian M/L makers , and can't contribute constructively , so I'm moving on down the road. ..Cheers
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You are correct, there was no snobbery in the original question. But it was also not mentioned in his original question that he didn't have photos. So not knowing this, the first person to respond asked for any photos. That's when the OP gave his snobbish remarks about he was not posting photos for anyone.
In the past, I have asked several times for help regarding firearms. Almost always someone would ask for photos and a great deal of the time, photos were a big help in determining the answer to what I may have been asking. I guess the bottom line is there is a right way and a wrong way to respond to people when you are the one asking for help.
Anyhow, I too have no more to say on this thread/topic.
 
David . It could be Elwood Parson. He was a friend of my grandfather who was known for wood inlays and engraving. When I say "known" I mean locally. Hamilton and Toronto area. If I remember correctly he passed away in the mid 60s. He did build BP guns but. making them look good was his thing. Look at fit and finish. We have one in 45 cal that he gave to grandpa in 1958 and its beautiful . I don't think they are high $ guns but are unique. Ours is etched (not stamped) EPP to HFG Hamilton. Grandpas notes say the second P in EPP stand for Pepper ,his dogs name. HFG is my grandfather. I looked on the interweb a few years back and found nothing about this guy, all I have to go on is memory of grandpas stories and grandpas note books.
 
Thanks Gaddye for a constructive post. Why I have not been notified that others were posting comments on this thread is beyond me. My remarks about the photos were not snobbish. As I age I have more of a tendancy to be abrupt and pointed for the sake of saving time and energy. To cover the point again....I did not have a camera with me...the seller lives far away so a return trip for a photo seemed a waste as I was just inquiring as to the name. Recently the seller called me to ask if I was interested and, because I had no luck with this post, I told him"no". Now, because of Gaddye's friendly and respectful posting I will see if I can get back there....with camera. What I was trying to find out was age of rifle as I thought possibly pre 1900. Now I do believe it is more recent and likely the maker has no collector value. Owner was asking $600.00 which I think is too much for this era rifle. Oh yes, I might add that I post all sorts of photos on GN and have for years. David
 
Dantforth said:
Thanks Gaddye for a constructive post. Why I have not been notified that others were posting comments on this thread is beyond me. My remarks about the photos were not snobbish. As I age I have more of a tendancy to be abrupt and pointed for the sake of saving time and energy. To cover the point again....I did not have a camera with me...the seller lives far away so a return trip for a photo seemed a waste as I was just inquiring as to the name. Recently the seller called me to ask if I was interested and, because I had no luck with this post, I told him"no". Now, because of Gaddye's friendly and respectful posting I will see if I can get back there....with camera. What I was trying to find out was age of rifle as I thought possibly pre 1900. Now I do believe it is more recent and likely the maker has no collector value. Owner was asking $600.00 which I think is too much for this era rifle. Oh yes, I might add that I post all sorts of photos on GN and have for years. David
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Dantforth, if the fit and finish is well done and especially if there are a lot of inlays that are very well done, and the parts are quality, then $600 could be a good price, or at least a fair price. The market is not as strong but blackpowder folks appreciate quality builds and will pay for them. There is a premium for known builders but for an "unknown" (relatively speaking) builder's gun, the value will be determined by looking at closely.
 
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