Ross Rifle sporter bring back :)

sean69

sean69

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Hi all! I had a repeat offender drop off an WWI Canadian infantry rifle this morning ~ a 1910 Ross Rifle :) It's not quite a sporter bring back, but close a replacement stock needing fitting (the original was spliced and broken) - some replacement/repro bands to fit, not more than a few hours work. The replacement stock was done by someone with a duplicator & is typical of what you would get from a duplicator with respect to fit and finish.

Everything went quite smoothly until I finally got the action and trigger guard fitted - now, full disclosure, I have never seen, yet, worked on a Ross - so I wanted to get some input here before I did any more work on it. So:

it goes together fine, both the front and rear action bolts snug right up to the ends of their threads in the new stock - there is no danger of over tightening or crushing the stock. There was a bit of an alignment issue from the duplicator with the trigger guard inlet and action inlet, so I am going to have to bed it (pillar bed it I think) anyway BUT what I noticed, was that of the rear action bolt was tightened all the way you could not work the bolt, it was like the action was bending and binding the bolt in those 2 grooves it rides on. If I loosen the rear bolt one full revolution (not 1/2, not 3/4 on FULL revolution) it will be fine, you can work the bolt/action.

I figured it was bending and binding, so I loosened the front action bolt - no dice, bolt would not move, removed front action bolt completely - bolt would still not move. (unless I loosened the rear action bolt)
I can get the bolt into the action most of the way without any undue force - it's about the last 1-2 inches or so, just when the lugs are entering the back of the chamber it binds up and obviously won't go any further.

I thought maybe it was hanging up on the back of the magazine - removed the magazine .... same problem.

I slathered both the bolt and action in prussian blue looking for the wearing surfaces ... quite literally nothing! just a bit where you would be expecting it anyway . (surprisingly little contact on the locking lugs!!!)

Lastly it binding about an inch or so from the end of the bolts travel I thought there must be some kind of sear engagement issue or something blocking the trigger? - this now seems most likely, but there is tons of room in there and no contact or evidence of contact anywhere between that trigger (group) and the stock. (I should have seen some transfer agent)



So guys, literally; "WTF"??? has anyone had an issue like this?


Pillar bedding it will let me set how tight the action bolts can be set, but I really want to know whats going on first!


thoughts? experiences?
 
Sounds like there is a hump between the front and rear screw, and you are binding the action.

A proper bedding job should solve this. Don't tighten the rear screw and bend the action while the epoxy is curing.
 
I recently restocked a Mk II** with a repro stock and had the exact same problems you describe, and some you did not mention.. The Mk II** has the same trigger group as the Mk III. There were alignment and excess inletting issues, as well as the binding you describe. In a nutshell, the distance between the inletting for bottom of the the receiver and the inletting for the trigger guard is insufficient. As a result, the boss around the trigger pin comes up against the trigger guard when things are tightened down. I had to place a shim under the trigger guard to solve the problem. I also had to shim one side of both the receiver and trigger guard inlets (the receiver in particular) to bring things into better alignment. Prior to that, the trigger collided with one side of the cut for the trigger in the guard.

EDIT:
Once you get everything lined up, I suggest you check the fit of the recoil lugs. I had to build that area up a little over 0.070" and spot in.
 
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B_noser said:
I recently restocked a Mk II** with a repro stock and had the exact same problems you describe, and some you did not mention.. The Mk II** has the same trigger group as the Mk III. There were alignment and excess inletting issues, as well as the binding you describe. In a nutshell, the distance between the inletting for bottom of the the receiver and the inletting for the trigger guard is insufficient. As a result, the boss around the trigger pin comes up against the trigger guard when things are tightened down. I had to place a shim under the trigger guard to solve the problem. I also had to shim one side of both the receiver and trigger guard inlets (the receiver in particular) to bring things into better alignment. Prior to that, the trigger collided with one side of the cut for the trigger in the guard.

EDIT:
Once you get everything lined up, I suggest you check the fit of the recoil lugs. I had to build that area up a little over 0.070" and spot in.
Click to expand...

Well if that doesn't sound exactly like what is happening - thanks!

- I was going to bed those lugs - there is a LOT of room at the front, the lug on the receiver is not in contact with the stock at any point, and there is a good 1/16->3/32 gap at the rear of the receiver so that was always in the cards. And I can tune the height of a pillar instead of using a shim.


Now - not related to the stock but I removed the rear receiver bridge (the part that the rear sight is bolted to) to get that little square protrusion on the right side out of the way while inletting. the two screws on the side (square protrusion) were fine. the two screws on the top left were stripped - one had no threads left at all, looked like a pin in fact. Examining the bridge showed that the (top 2) holes in the bridge itself and the receiver do not line up it's as if the holes in the (top of the) receiver are 0.005" too far to the left. There is no flex or give in the bridge so it can't be clamped in place while new screws are installed.

What is the issue here? is it possible that this is not the original bridge? Is there a solution for this - new screws will just strip again.

thanks!
 
sean69 said:
Now - not related to the stock but I removed the rear receiver bridge (the part that the rear sight is bolted to) to get that little square protrusion on the right side out of the way while inletting. the two screws on the side (square protrusion) were fine. the two screws on the top left were stripped - one had no threads left at all, looked like a pin in fact. Examining the bridge showed that the (top 2) holes in the bridge itself and the receiver do not line up it's as if the holes in the (top of the) receiver are 0.005" too far to the left. There is no flex or give in the bridge so it can't be clamped in place while new screws are installed.

What is the issue here? is it possible that this is not the original bridge? Is there a solution for this - new screws will just strip again.

thanks!
Click to expand...

There were a bunch of different non original rear sights and bridges available for these rifles back in the day, have to see the sight to know. Couldn't say where to get a bridge but the screws on all the ones I have seen were a #5 fillet head if that helps.
 
There were a number of different bridges available for the Mk II (1905), but not the Mk III (1910 or M10). The bridge on on the Mk III receiver is an integral, but separate, part of the receiver. There are two versions that I am aware of. The military version accepts the rear sight and has charger guides. The version found on at least some commercial rifles has a blank plate on the top and no guides. Mounting is the same. As I recall, the bridge locks in place in a groove and tongue arrangement. I will take a look at a receiver and a bridge to confirm that. If that is the case, it sounds as though the bridge is not fully in place on the right side. Heading to the shop to take a peek.
 
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That groove and tongue arrangement is at the top. I suggest you get the top in place first and then slide the side into position. If you do the reverse, there is probably not enough slack to allow the top to drop into place. The screws on a Ross are Unified National - a real treat if you usually work on the British stuff. As I recall, the bridge screws are #5 x 44 TPI (NF)
 
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So the pillar worked out nice - that big triangular part there needs to swing down and forward about 1mm, 2mm clearance gives it enough room to do that.

ross2.jpg


ross3.jpg



The screws on the bridge are a bit more of an issue, there is no play in the bridge, you can't sort of angle it to get the top screws started you can see the top of the bridge in the pic below - it's protruding enough to strip the screws after installing/removing them 2 maybe 3 times.

ross1.jpg


is there a source for the bridge and screws?
 
As I recall, screws are No 5 x 44 NF fillister head. They should not be difficult to find. If all else fails - Brownell's. Bridges do show up, but are in demand. I believe Divealta makes a repro. We should be able to determine what is going on with this one. Are the groove and tongue at the top fully engaged and the bridge down in place? Do the holes on the right side line up as it is now? If all else looks correct, I think I would just open up the screw holes on the offending side a few thou. You might get away with not having to open up the pockets for the screw heads. You would likely need an appropriately sized milling cutter and a mill or good drill press for that.

On a side note, I like your idea of installing pillars. Did the wood depth at the rear turn out to be less than the pillar length?
 
B_noser said:
As I recall, screws are No 5 x 44 NF fillister head. They should not be difficult to find. If all else fails - Brownell's. Bridges do show up, but are in demand. I believe Divealta makes a repro. We should be able to determine what is going on with this one. Are the groove and tongue at the top fully engaged and the bridge down in place? Do the holes on the right side line up as it is now? If all else looks correct, I think I would just open up the screw holes on the offending side a few thou. You might get away with not having to open up the pockets for the screw heads. You would likely need an appropriately sized milling cutter and a mill or good drill press for that.

On a side note, I like your idea of installing pillars. Did the wood depth at the rear turn out to be less than the pillar length?
Click to expand...

Yes, the stock depth was too shallow, but not by much - one full revolution of the bolt was the difference between working and not working. Also the trigger guard inlet and the action inlet were far enough out of alignment that there was really no web between the rear stock bolt and trigger well/inlet - something was needed there :(
But I got it bedded last night and am confident it will be solid for years & years and years +++ will never be a tack driver though, the stock has a significant warp in it and a fair amount of force is needed to get the middle band on, it is bowed nearly 1/8- 3/16" at the center (about where the band is) (actually , I could probably steam and straighten it....) ANYWAY

Divealta? no idea - nothing on google, you have some contact info?

There is no play in the bridge - it pretty much fits in the slot perfectly. Opening up holes in bridges and receivers is not in the cards as it's not my gun. Nor am I too concerned about finding correct screws or close enough screws as they are easy to modify (a 5/44 cap screw would even do the trick!)

Thing is you can get a screw in there solidly and it will start to strip, take it out and back in a few times and it will be useless ~SO~ once the stock is done & the bridge is on - it will probably never come off again & be someone else's problem in 20/30/40/etc years. So the current plan is to see if a bridge can be found (that fits) at a reasonable price + screws and if not: "close enough" screws with backups that can be modified ...

Last gasp solution = use the stripped screws as pins and silver solder it on :)


BTW - if you are ever looking for weird bolts and screws ~ especially slotted heads: Blacksmith Bolt Supply ( http://www.blacksmithbolt.com/ )
 
Divealta or divealta is a member here. He is producing 3D printed parts. The material is a mixture of bronze and stainless steel. Go the milsurp parts in the EE and do a search for Ross. If it were my project, I would not replace that bridge with a repro. Original or repro, they are not cheap.
Sounds as though your misalignment is front to rear. Mine was side to side. My stock depth was off about the same amount as yours.
 
B_noser said:
Divealta or divealta is a member here. He is producing 3D printed parts. The material is a mixture of bronze and stainless steel. Go the milsurp parts in the EE and do a search for Ross. If it were my project, I would not replace that bridge with a repro. Original or repro, they are not cheap.
Sounds as though your misalignment is front to rear. Mine was side to side. My stock depth was off about the same amount as yours.
Click to expand...

Yea - stock duplicators can be sketchy at best - if the pattern you are working from is not 100% or any little alignment issues , had one for a bit - couldn't get rid of it fast enough.


thanks for th info. I'll let the owner decide what's to be done :)
 
B_noser said:
No reason for him to produce them. No 5 NF fillister head are readily available.
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"readily" is a variable term ;)

Brownells appears to carry something close, you can get a #5-44 something in most hardware .. but anything "slotted" is going to be difficult to get. I had a conversation with the guy who runs Blacksmith Bolt near a year ago - there are no manufacturers making slotted wood screws any longer!

Slotted screws are a bit of a specialty item now .
 
Got some fun info back fro mDick at Blacksmith Bolt - this guy is always a pleasure to talk to ... soo much information :)

First, if it is a fillister, and it's flat on top, it's a flat fillister head. This is different from a (regular) fillister head, which has a slight crown to the top. Flat fillisters are often found in gun accessories, where they are placed into counterbored holes, so that they come flush with the surface. Flat fillisters are going to be very difficult to find outside of the gun parts arena, because the head style that is found in normal distribution is the regular fillister head.
Looking at the NationWide database of fasteners (the secondary market), we can see the following lengths available in quantities ranging from 100 to 28,000: 3/16", 3/8", 3/4" and 1". Please note that fasteners are always measured UNDER THE HEAD, not including the head, except when measuring flat or oval head styles. Both flat heads and oval heads require a counterSUNK hole prep (NOT a counterBORE). Flat heads and oval heads are measured from the widest point of the head to the tip of the screw.

If your OAL is 0.296, I'm guessing the screw is 1/4" long, measured under the head. 0.186 head diameter is at the small end of the range for a fillister head (0.186 to 0.205). A regular fillister head can always be machined into a flat fillister head. Trimmed, as you said.

We don't have anything in stock that could be modified. All the suppliers that have the #5-44 x 3/8" and longer screws listed above have minimums that would preclude us from ordering, plus we would have to purchase whole lots.
Click to expand...
 
Readily available means to me being able to order it from a place like Brownell's. I don't expect to be able to run to the corner hardware store for these items.

The screws we are talking about are indeed flat (not so - see edit) fillister head. My go-to source is Brownells and I buy their assortments, which have better pricing than the refill packs. I don't think I have ever purchased exact-length screws. It is routine to shorten longer screws as required. Save the off-cuts. You can make plugs out of them. I reshape the heads if I need something other than the standard sized flat head.

If you do order a fillister head screw kit from Brownell's, consider also purchasing their blank fillister head screw kit. They are a great resource when one has to make that special screw.

EDIT:
Well, it appears my advancing years are playing havoc with my memory. The Brownell's screw assortments are slightly domed, not flat headed. They are also nicely blued.
 
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