Rust Blue-Final Soak in Oil *PICS UP*

BigUglyMan said:
Wow...usually threads around here deteriorate into name calling and bear defense. I've been around a long time and can't recall ever seeing a thread descend into chemistry!:D
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Swing by the wilderness survival forum once in a while. It's a lot more than just TEOTWAWKI
;)

Search gasoline storage, generators, solar power. You will be pleasantly surprised :)
 
BigUglyMan said:
Wow...usually threads around here deteriorate into name calling and bear defense. I've been around a long time and can't recall ever seeing a thread descend into chemistry!:D
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The part about transmission oils that kills it for me (personally and chemically speaking) are the huge amounts of Anti-Oxidization addatives and viscosity modifiers present in modern ATF.

Such things are not present in straight weight or so called break in
Oils.

If there are rust and oxidation preventers in atf (there are) it would stand to reason that it will work against rust bluing in the oxidation process that you are bluing and bonding to the metal.

JMHO
 
Got Juice? said:
If there are rust and oxidation preventers in atf (there are) it would stand to reason that it will work against rust bluing in the oxidation process that you are bluing and bonding to the metal.
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I think its okay as the ATF is used to prevent any further oxidation or inhibit any further rusting. In other words, it is used to quench or stop the rusting reaction.

I know from my one and only project that it is recommended to sand only to 320 grit so there is a larger "surface" for the rust to form. If I look closely, I can see the "grain" of the iron steel. Given the rust forms the fine layer it should, I think the final soak would be good for the oil to penetrate the patina and stabalize the finish.

But really, I have no idea! :confused: I'll post pics when finished! Should be a week or so...
 
blauber said:
I think its okay as the ATF is used to prevent any further oxidation or inhibit any further rusting. In other words, it is used to quench or stop the rusting reaction.

I know from my one and only project that it is recommended to sand only to 320 grit so there is a larger "surface" for the rust to form. If I look closely, I can see the "grain" of the iron steel. Given the rust forms the fine layer it should, I think the final soak would be good for the oil to penetrate the patina and stabalize the finish.

But really, I have no idea! :confused: I'll post pics when finished! Should be a week or so...
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awesome. tagged for interest in your finished project.
 
Got Juice? said:
The part about transmission oils that kills it for me (personally and chemically speaking) are the huge amounts of Anti-Oxidization addatives and viscosity modifiers present in modern ATF.

Such things are not present in straight weight or so called break in
Oils.

If there are rust and oxidation preventers in atf (there are) it would stand to reason that it will work against rust bluing in the oxidation process that you are bluing and bonding to the metal.

JMHO
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As above, concur with blauber, :confused:

You only oil the finish after the bluing process is complete. You want those antioxidants and waxes. Just like you oil your guns with oils to prevent rust.

Thing is, wipe the bluing down with brake cleaner (perchloroethylene ) and it will strip all that oil out of the finish.

As for break in oil, the main difference is they don't have friction modifiers. These are particles in the oil that sort of behave like microscopic bearings. Diesel oils don't have friction modifiers because the modifiers only work on lightly loaded engines. This is the same reason you don't use oil with friction modifiers in wet clutches, the modifiers build up on the clutch material and engagement isn't good.

So, thinking about it, an oil without friction modifiers could be better in theory, but if you clean the bluing with any kind of solvent, it doesn't really matter.
 
Well I'm done! Here are the pics and some comments:

-humidifier room (space between 2nd story and attic!). I got lazy and didn't want to fuss so used this space equipped with a catalytic propane heater, slow cooker for humidity and a light.



Final Product after 4 days in Transmission Oil:


http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab198/Remi_08_2008/RustBlue005.jpg
[URL="[IMG]http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab198/Remi_08_2008/RustBlue04.jpg"]


The foreend iron turned out as well as the barrel set. However, everything associated with the receiver (i.e. "the receiver", top lever, trigger assembly and guard) did not take as well. Instead of 3 passes as in barrel set, I took four, but the finish had a bronze hue and appeared somewhat mottled.



However, all the parts attached to the receiver have the same patina-I like it, but it's far from perfect. It does appear blue in alternate light:



All in all, here's how I went about the project:

-2 passes at 3 hours in the humidifier, followed by carding. Then a 2 hour pass (I was up late), followed by evaluating the final finish. I realized the receiver et. al. parts were not rusting as well, so I put them back for 5 hours (got some rest) and finished via final carding).
-after final carding I wrapped all the parts in an old cotton bed sheet saturated in new transmission oil). I then wrapped in tin foil. I noticed from a previous post that Mauser98 poured boiling hot oil over the parts. I elected to put the parts (in foil) in the oven at 300 F-then the smoke detectors went off...
-I then left the parts for a couple days, followed by unwrapping them and rubbing more transmission oil on the parts and left for another two days.
-the final carding with rough paper towel was a great idea; I removed quite a bit of black from the barrel set especially along the vent rib in the hard to reach areas.

All in all, I don't think I could be more happy. The receiver was originally case hardened and perhaps this is why it did not rust as well as the barrel set. The bronze hue may have been due (based on reading) to applying too much rust agent or over boiling, however the barrel set went through the same process so I don't see that happening. It's now got kind a patina that although not perfect, will protect the underlying metal and personally (although not perfect) I am happy to say like the end result.

Rust blue-not for all, but very satisfying expecially if you're into an extended (and fun?) project with an oldie shotgun or rifle.
 
blauber said:
I noticed from a previous post that Mauser98 poured boiling hot oil over the parts. I elected to put the parts (in foil) in the oven at 300 F-then the smoke detectors went off...
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Nope, not me.:)Quite frankly, the idea of heating used motor oil to 300 F doesn't appeal to me.

Your bluing job looks good. The discoloring on the receiver is strange though. I haven't seen that yet. Is the receiver cast?
 
Sorry Mauser98, there are a number of rust blue threads. I elected to heat for experimentation purposes-thought that the oil might penetrate the new rust patina and quench the reaction faster.

Not sure if the receiver is cast-it's a circa 1924-35 Iver Johnson shotgun. The receiver was deeply pitted on the underside and along each side. I took 180 grit to it, followed by 220 and then 320. I haven't seen that either on the only other project I did, but guess that the carbon layer from cold case hardening may have penetrated the iron steel and interfered with even rusting? Who knows...

The gun is going to be hunted hard so I'm not too disappointed in the mottling on the receiver and components-it all matches and kinda resembles the mottling of cold case colours-just different hues!
 
Case Hardening

32-20 said:
It appears to have a case hardening illusion to it. Is it possible that the blueing is highlighting the case hardening by chance?

I think I like it...
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I don't think so-all the case hardening was removed (at start) and sanding took it down to bare metal (180-220-320grit). I guess there could have been some carbon left "in" the metal.

I think I like it too...going to keep it :D
 
tjsudbury said:
If you had that propane catalytic heater on in your house, your lucky to be alive. I know a couple of people who have died from carbon monoxide poisoning.
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I saw that too. Propane appliances indoors make for a bad scene. I had a guy in BC whose hydrogen got cut off during a cold snap. When his friends went to check on him and couldn't get an answer the ugly truth reared its head.
 
BigUglyMan said:
I saw that too. Propane appliances indoors make for a bad scene. I had a guy in BC whose hydrogen got cut off during a cold snap. When his friends went to check on him and couldn't get an answer the ugly truth reared its head.
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Interesting-the catalytics are marketed for indoor use. I use mine for ice fishing and winter camping. The catalytic converter removes the noxious fumes, that is if it is working properly! :redface:
 
blauber said:
Interesting-the catalytics are marketed for indoor use. I use mine for ice fishing and winter camping. The catalytic converter removes the noxious fumes, that is if it is working properly! :redface:
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I know a guy, a cat and a tank full of frozen goldfish (the whole tank frozen solid in mid swim - a comically macabre sight) who would warn you against it. I'm no scientist, but I can't imagine another way to turn Propane (C3H8) into heat without combusting it and turning it into CO2 and Water, or if things don't work right, CO, CO2 and Water. Excess of any of that is bad to have floating around your house.
 
Used motor oil because of the high carbon content. The rust bluing actually leaves microscopic rust pores in the metal that get filled in with the carbon particles. It helps to prevent further oxidization and also darkens the blue and makes it look more lustrous..

I like to rub the heated parts (heated in the oven if possible or by the woodstove) with HOT, black, used oil about 3 times a day for a week or so. the lower viscosity of the hot oil helps the carbon penetrate better.

Cheers
 
blauber said:
Hey that makes sense! I noticed more of a matte finish compared to a similar vintage shottie. Will try used next time!
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It's never too late to use used oil. Spray it all down with brake cleaner and blow it off with high pressure air if you have a compressor... do it a few times, carding with superfine steel wool also soaked in brake cleaner. or you could even stick it back in the boiling tank for a half hour after soaking it in brake cleaner. Follow up with the hot oil when the parts come out of the bath and are still hot. I personally find it makes a HUGE difference to the quality of the blue. Makes it much darker and deeper.
 
mikeystew said:
It's never too late to use used oil. Spray it all down with brake cleaner and blow it off with high pressure air if you have a compressor... do it a few times, carding with superfine steel wool also soaked in brake cleaner. or you could even stick it back in the boiling tank for a half hour after soaking it in brake cleaner. Follow up with the hot oil when the parts come out of the bath and are still hot. I personally find it makes a HUGE difference to the quality of the blue. Makes it much darker and deeper.
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It's too late :D-it's all back together-just waiting for a buttplate from North Carolina. But I hear you...next time, and thanks for this advice.
 
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