SCAR program canceled
- Thread starter mildot
- Start date
Now that would be worth getting up early on a Saturday morning for...
I don't give the Mk17 much time left FYI...
SOCOM is looking for a fleet of weapons
The M4A1 and Mk18 are good guns, and SCAR offers nothing over what is fielded.
Daniel Defense will be selling a lot of RISII rail systems in the next 5 years or so...
They have the SR-25 Mk11 Mod0's and Mod2's as their Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle, and the only real void currently is a shorter 7.62mm system.
If I had a crystal ball, my prediction would be that a SR-25 style 16" system will be procured (not nec from KAC) to replace the envisioned role of the H/Mk17.
SOCOM already has two other programs of record for a 16" 7.62mm, and my beleif is one of those systems will replace the Mk17 Command wide.
FYI SOCOM units turned in Mk16's with unsuitability reports, so after all the tax dollars thrown at it, FN still did not manage to make a silk purse out of the sow's ear requirements they where given.
Headaches of the XM-8 come back to haunt us all.
SOCOM is looking for a fleet of weapons
The M4A1 and Mk18 are good guns, and SCAR offers nothing over what is fielded.
Daniel Defense will be selling a lot of RISII rail systems in the next 5 years or so...
They have the SR-25 Mk11 Mod0's and Mod2's as their Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle, and the only real void currently is a shorter 7.62mm system.
If I had a crystal ball, my prediction would be that a SR-25 style 16" system will be procured (not nec from KAC) to replace the envisioned role of the H/Mk17.
SOCOM already has two other programs of record for a 16" 7.62mm, and my beleif is one of those systems will replace the Mk17 Command wide.
FYI SOCOM units turned in Mk16's with unsuitability reports, so after all the tax dollars thrown at it, FN still did not manage to make a silk purse out of the sow's ear requirements they where given.
Headaches of the XM-8 come back to haunt us all.
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
XM8 is owned by General Dynamics - My guess is that if there is a carbine competition then it will be tossed back into the pit.
Seriously, I wonder how long before the industry is sick of the US government. The USG keeps playing with this procurement game but never really buy anything.
Fear not, the US civilian market can digest more AR15 than most nation militaries around the world in one year.
Seriously, I wonder how long before the industry is sick of the US government. The USG keeps playing with this procurement game but never really buy anything.
Fear not, the US civilian market can digest more AR15 than most nation militaries around the world in one year.
I don't think you can entirely fault the US military. Industry keeps showing up with barely workable beta models that take decades to work the bugs out of. Those kinds of products are more a pain than a blessing with todays limited spending dollars. We're not in the cold war anymore.
It seems much more cost effective to just upgrade the cartridge and keep the AR15 variants.
They throw cash into developpement for absolutely no reason for almost anything. Just take the Magpul enhanced follower, the department of defense wanted a more reliable follower for their USGI mags, they didn't even want to take a look at what Magpul has already done, on their own dime, to developp an extremely reliable mag follower, that IS available for contract right now, nooo... they spent $$$ and time on trying to developp their own follower, a sand colored one (woohoo), that supposedly is the best thing sliced bread for the military, which it's not. That's how they work. BACKWARDS.
The SCAR program has been pretty successful for quite a while, and these were the weapons that SOCOM wanted AND asked for since they laid out the requirements. The cartridge idea has been a key topic for years, but that doesn't justify SOCOM to pull the plug on the program. If they wanted to field a weapon with a different sized projectile, they should have asked for that from the beginning, instead of toying with everyone.. and in this case, it was FN that got really screwed (or so it appears). I don't know the actual production numbers FN has already accomplished, but if the number is right at the expected amount, I wouldn't doubt that they would sue, unless they feel the SCAR could be going to another branch of the US military. Then again, we don't know the entire story, since the 'official' word from the military is never the true story.
mudgunner49
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That wasn't aimed at you, merely the whole "XM8 fiasco" all over again - and I won't bite you ; - )
FYI a little info for you.
From Brett W, FN Senior Manager of Assault Weapons - SCAR Program 06-Present:
Quote:
It’s time for me to give my 2 cents and, my first 2 cents even after leaving FN.
There is a lot more going on here than just “rumored canceling” of anything. Nothing is canceled, and full rate production is still on track. It may not being the numbers that were initially quoted BUT it will be built.
Here’s a little bit of history with this program that you may not know. About 3 -4 years ago, SOCOM had control over the budget for all components of who was to receive SCAR. During the field test and operational tests (which I was directly involved with on range and down range) the feeling that 7.62 was more popular (for oblivious reasons) then its little 5.56 brother. The fielding schedule was (and not exactly sure on this number) to be, I believe 5 SCAR-L to 2 SCAR-H’s. When the popularity shift started, SOCOM decided to give the money back to each component.
As the budget cuts came down in the last year and half or so, and USASOC being told to cut their budget by 15% and try and stand up a 4th Battalion at every SF Grp. Needless to say, almost all components spent their entire budget on getting guns and one component decided not to. Much of that has to do with were money comes from. Put it this way, if you could go to mommy and get all of your toys for free, and if you had to go to daddy to get them you would have to pay for all of them, who would you ask for the toys?
Most of these decisions now are STRICTLY MONETARILY based! Not based on true feedback or even pure data, or a combination of both!
Now fast forward about 2.5 years. 1/75 deployed with the rifle’s (Both Lights and Heavy’s), not sure if its public, but other units in NAVSPECWAR, Army SF and I believe a few AF units deployed with it. There was approximately 2,200 weapons fielded, not all of them were deployed. During the fielding (which I was at EVERY one) events, I heard many complaints. A lot of people who knew a guy, who knew a guy who shot the gun and they read on the internet that it was a piece of ####. Most of the naysayers that shot the rifle and came to me at the end of the event or sent me an email from down range saying that I was right, and they were going to tell their “buddy” who knew it all, that they were full of ####.
(One other thing, when SCAR L and SCAR H was deployed, especially in Afghanistan, the Taliban learned the hard way that the average engagement distance increased and the standoff for weapons such as the M4 was not holding true anymore)
With that said, there are surveys that had to be given out at money point of their training and operational cycles (since this is a very high profile program). They are given, pre, during and post training; and given out pre, during and post deployment. I can not disclose what is exactly in those (and it is not because of an NDA, but it’s because I ride the good side of ethics), but more than 87% of the end-users, who had the “proper training time” and have taken it all the way through PMT and deployment would take the SCAR L into combat over what they currently have and 97% would take the SCAR H into combat.
This is a very STRONG disconnect between what most of the trigger pulling operators are saying and what makes it to the decision makers. There is a bold and obvious movement against the SCAR program at many levels inside key positions all the way up the chain of command. I am not going to give specific names or positions; I don’t think that is a good way of doing business, but I do know who they are and why they are doing it! I’m sure one day it will all come out.
Back to the technical side of it, one of the reasons they could be stepping away for the MK16 is the common receiver. The common receiver, if on schedule, should be ready late year or early next. Why continue making the 5.56 specific versions, if you’re going to have the 7.62 version that will accept the 5.56 parts kit? Why would you spend money on all those guns now, if you can just use one serial number/ one receiver later one?
One last thing to keep in mind, is this was an “Official” position of USSOCOM, why is the source unnamed? Every reporter wants the edge to break a story, to have it hit first. This is a bit pre-mature.
SCAR is not the end best answer, but it IS a step above what is currently out there. The M4 was NEVER tested. It was never put through the same parameters as the SCAR. SCAR is the most tested weapon in the HISTORY of small arms procurement. Over 3 millions rounds. I’m not here to sell you on it, but it does have its advantages, and until you put 2-5k rounds though, don’t judge it!
Dear Lord why?
So much has been advanced since then, the XM8/G36 though interesting rifles have some serious issues, optics selection being the primary one. Heck even HK has moved on from the G36...
As for the SCAR, its a pretty well developed platform, I highly doubt we'll see it disappear. The main issue in the US is that they are broke, like really broke. M4s are just plain cheaper to acquire and at the end of the day money talks. There is a lot going on in the US right now, especially at the top, a lot of it to do with $.
attackbeaver
CGN Regular
- Location
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jmiddy forwarded email said:
could it be that certain high level personnel of the US command structure have big invested interest in keeping COLT and the M4 the stranded long arm of most of the US armed forces?
