Scope FFP (First Focal Plane) Necessary?
- Thread starter xopher
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I have used 6500s on coyote rifles, never had one lose its zero. Switched to Leupold for a while, they are the kings when it comes to a reasonable weight scope, and they are very durable at that weight. As I shoot longer distances (300-500yards) I found them to lack the clarity I wanted to see my hits. I recently switched to a 4200 6-24, it is the same weight as the 6500s but it is 2" shorter so its a little more compact. The leupold VXIII that was recently serviced and added M1 turrets is not as clear as the tactical elite scope at the same magnification, and I was supprised to see that the "eyebox" was more managable on the bushnell at 24x than the leupold at 14x.
The new VX3 and MK4 scopes may be clearer than my old version, but the bushnell was $only 500 usedn and is like new.
I would love to try a nightforce but 32oz for a scope seems crazy heavy on a rifle that will be hunted with.
I have a Falcon, it's a decent scope for the price. It isn't at the same level as my Premiers, but that was never expected from it. It rides on my 10/22 most of the time, but occasionally finds it's way onto my AR during load development.
FFP scopes are great for measuring distance in the real world as long as your point of impact is something large enough that it will not be obscured by the magnified reticle.
For hunting deer, coyotes this is not a problem, if you are looking to use it in a match, you may find that the magnified reticle is actually larger than your bullseye.... which can be a problem
For hunting deer, coyotes this is not a problem, if you are looking to use it in a match, you may find that the magnified reticle is actually larger than your bullseye.... which can be a problem
That really depends on the scope in question. With the cheaper optics, yes. Falcon is pretty thick. With the higher end ones, not as much. Vortex Razon HD is too thick, IMO. Premier Gen2 XR is still fine enough that I can aim at bingo dots at 300 yards.
I haven't shot a FFP but have looked and adjusted the magnification. The increase of reticle size was something I didn't get used to. Ranging would have to be higher on my priority list or something I was unable to do with my current scope. Unfortunately it's not. Any mildot or other ranging reticle can accomplish the task. So for the awkward increase in reticle size I would pass. At the same time I would actually have to use it for longer than just handling it in the store.
Not sure how this thread turned into a brand war
FWIW, I have a few Sightron SIII SS 6-24x50's they are optically very good and have all the features I need in a scope. Other than the high quality glass the 100MOA of adjustment is a must have for most of my rifles. That alone makes me choose the Sightron over the Viper PST. Another feature I like is the MIL/MIL setup, fantastic. I also have Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50's and the optics are pretty good too, the downside is that there simply isn't enough adjustment and the MIL/MOA is very annoying.
Not sure how this thread turned into a brand war
FWIW, I have a few Sightron SIII SS 6-24x50's they are optically very good and have all the features I need in a scope. Other than the high quality glass the 100MOA of adjustment is a must have for most of my rifles. That alone makes me choose the Sightron over the Viper PST. Another feature I like is the MIL/MIL setup, fantastic. I also have Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50's and the optics are pretty good too, the downside is that there simply isn't enough adjustment and the MIL/MOA is very annoying.
Please do tell what you use FFP for outside of ranging/milling.
An FFP setup (with the proper reticle) allows you to use the reticle for hold-overs and wind hold-off at any magnification. You can do this because the reticle is graduated in the same units as your turrets. This allows you to engage targets much more quickly if you're in an area where they may appear suddenly, for a limited time and at random distances. Situations where time spent adjusting turrets can mean not getting a shot off at the target. You just need to know your dope and be able to estimate distance or have a spotter painting targets with the LRF and calling out holdovers. And, you can have the magnification set to whatever it needs to be in order to give you the best field of view.
Your reticle being accurate at any magnification and in the same units as your turrets also means that you can use the reticle to measure misses. You can zero a rifle in two shots at whatever distance, without having to go measure or use a grid target. Someone telling you that they don't think in metric is another sign that they don't know how to use FFP. You don't need to do math in your head to figure out a correction like you do with SFP. You just measure with the reticle and adjust directly. It doesn't matter what the distance is or the magnification is set to. Brain cycles spend trying to estimate the size of your miss and then calculate what that translates into MOA are brain cycles wasted that could be spent doing useful things like monitoring the wind or tracking your target. Doing arithmetic in your head also falls apart under stress.
Leads on moving targets (not talking vehicle speeds here) is a lot easier with FFP.
1.5 MPH "walking man"
You don't have to memorize a lead for every distance and relate it to the size of your target the way you do with SFP, it's pretty constant (in terms of mils) over a wide distance, for speeds that humans and animals typically move at.
These are a few of the more common uses. A good FFP scope loses very little to an SPF scope in deliberate shooting under any kind of field condition (bipod and bag - no rests). But it trounces the SFP scope in field situations where time is a factor, distances are not known and the targetry is not of a standard/known size. This is why there is such a huge trend towards FFP in tactical applications.
Your reticle being accurate at any magnification and in the same units as your turrets also means that you can use the reticle to measure misses. You can zero a rifle in two shots at whatever distance, without having to go measure or use a grid target. Someone telling you that they don't think in metric is another sign that they don't know how to use FFP. You don't need to do math in your head to figure out a correction like you do with SFP. You just measure with the reticle and adjust directly. It doesn't matter what the distance is or the magnification is set to. Brain cycles spend trying to estimate the size of your miss and then calculate what that translates into MOA are brain cycles wasted that could be spent doing useful things like monitoring the wind or tracking your target. Doing arithmetic in your head also falls apart under stress.
Leads on moving targets (not talking vehicle speeds here) is a lot easier with FFP.
1.5 MPH "walking man"
You don't have to memorize a lead for every distance and relate it to the size of your target the way you do with SFP, it's pretty constant (in terms of mils) over a wide distance, for speeds that humans and animals typically move at.
These are a few of the more common uses. A good FFP scope loses very little to an SPF scope in deliberate shooting under any kind of field condition (bipod and bag - no rests). But it trounces the SFP scope in field situations where time is a factor, distances are not known and the targetry is not of a standard/known size. This is why there is such a huge trend towards FFP in tactical applications.
ranging is not limited to measuring the distance from muzzle to target, windage and holdovers are all part of ranging, which is the primary purpose of FFP scope.
By any standard or common definition of ranging, they are not... and they are also not part of what the post the explanation was answering. The post made it clear that the poster's definition of ranging was limited to "measuring the distance from muzzle to target".
Sounds like you agree that ranging throughout the magnification range is the primary advantage of an FFP scope. You can achieve the same results holding over with an SFP scope. You just have to be at the proper power, or at any power with simple math.
Ranging is exactly that finding the range not the main use for FFP you will never be accurate at long range, close may be but not accurate.
the main use for FFP is holdovers and hold off's that's it that's all a good recital will help tonnes , no need to do math to figure out the magnification difference ect...
