seating too deep?
- Thread starter uchi
- Start date
uchi,
I think the point H4831 is trying to make is, that there are many of us on this forum with decades of loading experience. Through the thousands and thoudands of rounds we have loaded and fired safely, we have all run into situations were we may have loaded a round or two .040" too deep. It is very easy to do when switching from one brand of bullet to another.
Now, if this round was being used in 1000 yard competition I would say pull it and re-seat it. For load testing at 100-200 you likely will not see any difference in group size. There will not be any noticeable difference in recoil and you will be able to walk away with your rifle and face intact.
You can choose to listen to the 10 guys that say "shoot it", or the one or two guys that say "your #### will fall off"
I would not give you or anyone else advice that would cause a dangerous situation and I am pretty sure H4831 wouldn't either.
thanks maynard, as i said, its hard to know whos done what and whos got what experience with these things. with all the mall ninjas running around these boards im just trying to use my best judgement along with the information given to me to make the right decision. if you guys say its good and say youve got x amount of loading experience, ill take your word for it. its in my range bag ill pop it off when we head out for the afternoon.
thanks for the help again guys, sorry if i got a little pissed yesterday with the old man. range report to follow when i get home. lets hope one of the loads works out well for me.
A 30-06 round seated a little deep will make no difference. Shoot it!
A 9mm pistol round seated .040" too deep may be too much and I would pull it.
I don't get the toss it mentality with a lot of stuff. I don't need to save every little component, but some people seem to toss new brass if they sneazed while handling it lol.
A 9mm pistol round seated .040" too deep may be too much and I would pull it.
I don't get the toss it mentality with a lot of stuff. I don't need to save every little component, but some people seem to toss new brass if they sneazed while handling it lol.
alright but if my face gets ripped off youre covering a part of that medical bill, lol.
i did a brass count this morning. 420 pieces of it, i thought i had a couple hundred, i was way off. lol
Only if we get to vote, we might see it as an improvement
Let us know where that shot landed in the group.
alright range report.
i made it home alive, it was a little nerve racking shooting with a new muzzle brake on and with hand loads. they all went boom. the ligthest load shot about 3/4 inch at 100 yards, as the powder went up in weight they started to open up all the way to what looked like 1.5 inches, but as i reached the max load they tightened right up. at 100 yards the tightest group looked to be between 1/2 and 3/4 inch at 100 yards. that being said before id be able to shoot about a 1 inch group with factory ammo through this gun so its an improvement and once i get used to the gun again im sure i can tighten them up quite a bit more. this was also the first time with the muzzle brake which made a ig difference in itself, i buried 4 factory loaded rounds at 60 yards at just over a half inch. i didnt bring my vernier with me to get an accurate measurement but the groups were significantly tighter than theyve ever been.
as for the deeper round, it shot about 2 inches right and 3 inches low after shooting the hottest group. but that was also loaded with less powder so that would have played a role, i found that the POI was different for each load i shot.
thanks for all the help guys much appreciated, glad i listened to you guys and took the advice. gonna have to load some more ammo now in the weight that i found worked the best and start practicing
i made it home alive, it was a little nerve racking shooting with a new muzzle brake on and with hand loads. they all went boom. the ligthest load shot about 3/4 inch at 100 yards, as the powder went up in weight they started to open up all the way to what looked like 1.5 inches, but as i reached the max load they tightened right up. at 100 yards the tightest group looked to be between 1/2 and 3/4 inch at 100 yards. that being said before id be able to shoot about a 1 inch group with factory ammo through this gun so its an improvement and once i get used to the gun again im sure i can tighten them up quite a bit more. this was also the first time with the muzzle brake which made a ig difference in itself, i buried 4 factory loaded rounds at 60 yards at just over a half inch. i didnt bring my vernier with me to get an accurate measurement but the groups were significantly tighter than theyve ever been.
as for the deeper round, it shot about 2 inches right and 3 inches low after shooting the hottest group. but that was also loaded with less powder so that would have played a role, i found that the POI was different for each load i shot.
thanks for all the help guys much appreciated, glad i listened to you guys and took the advice. gonna have to load some more ammo now in the weight that i found worked the best and start practicing
Seconded.
Much to-doo over nothing. IMO.
OP, you were right to ask.
Not the worst thing for a beginner to be a just a bit too carefull, right out of the gate.
H4831, and many others here, really know their chit. With some more time on CGN, more reloads, and you too will learn to separate the wheat from the chaf.
Edit: OP's Range Report post!. .........................
1/2 to 3/4 MOA, first time out. Tell us that that don't turn your crank
?. That you have a decent rifle, and that you are a decent shot with it .... has been established.You are seeing accuracy 'nodes' come and go as you work up.
Typically there are 2 or 3 between start and Max.(Max for .. your .. rifle)
Most of us work on the "warm but not too hot" node, with charge and seating depth tweaks. .3 to .5 grains charge weight often defines the width of the node. Wider is better.
Lots to learn, uchi, consistency at longer ranges being one of them.
May I suggest a shortcut? (45 years of loading here, under the belt).
Runout matters ... the less the better. Don't really need fancy equipment to detect it, just roll your finished rounds across a flat plate. 3-5 thou bullet tip wobble is visible to your eye. If you can see it, longer range groups/POI will open somewhat.
Lee collet, Redding body(when needed), and Redding/forster BR seating dies will load dead straight ammo, every round.
You need only to determine the powder charge, and how far in/off the lands to seat.
Annealing matters ... When you start to feel different ram handle pressure, when seating bullets, time to anneal.
Plenty more, but thats all I'll bore you with fror now
I find accuracy gets better after you shoot a bunch of rimfire ammo before the
bigger bores.
Gets the head in the shooting mode.
Plus, your ginch don't take a squeezing from the arse cheeks.
You know, nerves..............
bigger bores.
Gets the head in the shooting mode.
Plus, your ginch don't take a squeezing from the arse cheeks.
You know, nerves..............
Seconded.
Much to-doo over nothing. IMO.
OP, you were right to ask.
Not the worst thing for a beginner to be a just a bit too carefull, right out of the gate.
H4831, and many others here, really know their chit. With some more time on CGN, more reloads, and you too will learn to separate the wheat from the chaf.
Edit: OP's Range Report post!. .........................
1/2 to 3/4 MOA, first time out. Tell us that that don't turn your crank
You are seeing accuracy 'nodes' come and go as you work up.
Typically there are 2 or 3 between start and Max.(Max for .. your .. rifle)
Most of us work on the "warm but not too hot" node, with charge and seating depth tweaks. .3 to .5 grains charge weight often defines the width of the node. Wider is better.
Lots to learn, uchi, consistency at longer ranges being one of them.
May I suggest a shortcut? (45 years of loading here, under the belt).
Runout matters ... the less the better. Don't really need fancy equipment to detect it, just roll your finished rounds across a flat plate. 3-5 thou bullet tip wobble is visible to your eye. If you can see it, longer range groups/POI will open somewhat.
Lee collet, Redding body(when needed), and Redding/forster BR seating dies will load dead straight ammo, every round.
You need only to determine the powder charge, and how far in/off the lands to seat.
Annealing matters ... When you start to feel different ram handle pressure, when seating bullets, time to anneal.
Plenty more, but thats all I'll bore you with fror now
the much more accurate loads gave me a bit of a semi, so yes quite happy it worked, lol. ill chec the run out on the next batch i make, im sure ive got a run out guage somewhere around here i can put to use. maybe even have a machine shop make me a guage block of sorts with steps in it that the case neck and bullet would have their own grooves in to see if theres a bit of a wobble.
i tried to keep my grain weights +/- .2 when i was weighing, ill try to keep it a bit tighter with the new batch ill start on tomorrow. see what that does and try out your suggestion for the runout.
the dies youre refering to will replace my current rcbs die to load the bullet in to the case correct? if so ill look for one if i determine that im having run out issues.
i did some reading on at home annealing the other day actually, something about a pot of water, a torch, getting it hot and quenching it. ive got 420 pieces of brass so im sure if i cycle them right itll be a long time before i need to anneal.
im gonna load up 15 or so rounds the same way that i did these one and try them out soon and see if i can better my groups at all and ill try them out to 200 as well to see what they start to open up like. after that ill start playing with seating depths and see if a few thou + or - helps and work it from there.
for now im just happy the gun shot as well as it did and that every one of them went bang. unlike the people i was with today i couldnt walk away form the gun when the first handloaded round was chambered. lol.
I find accuracy gets better after you shoot a bunch of rimfire ammo before the
bigger bores.
Gets the head in the shooting mode.
Plus, your ginch don't take a squeezing from the arse cheeks.
You know, nerves..............
thats why i shot a box of factory ammo first, had to get used to the new brake and i find with a 5 ounce trigger there isnt much flinch, lol. but i know what you mean, ive often popped off my 22 first just to get my mind in the game.
I find accuracy gets better after you shoot a bunch of rimfire ammo before the
bigger bores.
Gets the head in the shooting mode.
Plus, your ginch don't take a squeezing from the arse cheeks.
You know, nerves..............
Funny that.
A life time of squeez'n off a b'zillion rounds, some real big ones, and them 'lil ole rimfires too, mostly the middle CF ones though ... and still to this day, that internal "get a grip" dialog goes on. WTF?, guess it's permanent.
Funny that.
A life time of squeez'n off a b'zillion rounds, some real big ones, and them 'lil ole rimfires too, mostly the middle CF ones though ... and still to this day, that internal "get a grip" dialog goes on. WTF?, guess it's permanent.
thats because you arent drinking enough to calm your nerves, lol.
took a screen cap from a video of the gun being shot with a hand load
That is correct. In a cartridge with large internal capacity, pushing the bullet in decreases volume inside case by a very small percentage, so small increase in peak pressure (typically, but go back to what the manuals say)
However in a small capacity, straight walled case, pushing the bullet in decreases the internal capacity significantly. I forgot the numbers, so don't quote me, but in something like a 9mm, 0.1" or so pushed in, with a fast powder, can double peak pressure...... (note that a proof load is about 1.4 to 1.5 times spec pressure)
Just wanted to give some clarity to others reading this thread, so it isn't applied to all cartridges.
thats because you arent drinking enough to calm your nerves, lol.
took a screen cap from a video of the gun being shot with a hand load
That you 'n yer gun?. Nice rig. Truth be told, wouldn't know a "screen cap" from a loose 'ol sow's ear. Am push'n 70(lite), ya know.
Did however notice the perfect mammories
shape of that brake's blast signature. Oh yeah.Yer off to a very good start, dude.
The runout/die/anneal thing starts to really manifest at 250-300+++ yards. If you are staying at short range the gains will be less dramatic. However, less of those WTF? fliers are to be head-scratched at any distance, for sure.
Research the annealing methods, or PM me, or other CGN old hands, before
cooking your brass to a fare-thee-well.
My tolerances are +/- .1 grain with the slow burning powders. Stays in 3/8th's MOA year in and out for me.
The important thing with the seating depth thing is to establish just where they touch, and go from there.
My current "best shooter" wants .015" jam, so I gotta "chase the lands" and add 2-3 thou. to the seat depth every 100 rounds, to allow for throat erosion.
Yeah, I'm anal. A LR steel clanger.
yes sir thats me and my 700 creating a breastacular pair of clouds the gun was making everyone laugh each time it went off, and annoyed the guys down range a little, lol. i felt like a bit of a #### when i saw an open target that wasnt being used and i shot my best group into it. it actually had a couple scattered holes in the bottom which im guessing the guys at the other end of the range had put into it using iron sights and an sks. maybe the guy will show the target to his friends and show them the 3 shots he shot to make one small hole dead center in the paper. lol.
once im ready to start with it ill let you know. how will i know when im ready to anneal? do i determine it by wall thickness of the neck? it may be in the hornady book, ive been through it all twice and didnt catch it if it was.
nice to hear you can still pick up a gun at your age hehe, ill try and upload a video and put it here of my wife shooting the 700. the brake really made it into a gentle gun and the video shows it.
ive had flyers from all ammo, even some of the handloads today, some of the in between weights id bury 3 sub moa and the 4th would land 3 inches away.
3/8 moa is quite impressive, im sure i can shoot tighter groups if i tighten up my tolerances with my powder. ill load up some more and try to keep them as tight as you did and see what the improvements are. i spent 3 hours tonight learning a lesson. dont prep 170 pieces of brass. de primed them, used the case length gauge and trimmer on each one, chamfered and deburred them, cleaned each primer pocket, and then set primers in each one. my hands are gonna thank me tomorrow im sure of it, but now im ready to start working on making some more rounds
i can see how the run out would create an issue, by the time the bullet has travelled that far, having left the gun at any sort of angle would just through it all to crap. ill check the next batch for run out and hope its not too bad.
thanks for all the help. ill try and get the video up tonight
the gun was making everyone laugh each time it went off, and annoyed the guys down range a little, lol. i felt like a bit of a #### when i saw an open target that wasnt being used and i shot my best group into it. it actually had a couple scattered holes in the bottom which im guessing the guys at the other end of the range had put into it using iron sights and an sks. maybe the guy will show the target to his friends and show them the 3 shots he shot to make one small hole dead center in the paper. lol.once im ready to start with it ill let you know. how will i know when im ready to anneal? do i determine it by wall thickness of the neck? it may be in the hornady book, ive been through it all twice and didnt catch it if it was.
nice to hear you can still pick up a gun at your age
hehe, ill try and upload a video and put it here of my wife shooting the 700. the brake really made it into a gentle gun and the video shows it. ive had flyers from all ammo, even some of the handloads today, some of the in between weights id bury 3 sub moa and the 4th would land 3 inches away.
3/8 moa is quite impressive, im sure i can shoot tighter groups if i tighten up my tolerances with my powder. ill load up some more and try to keep them as tight as you did and see what the improvements are. i spent 3 hours tonight learning a lesson. dont prep 170 pieces of brass. de primed them, used the case length gauge and trimmer on each one, chamfered and deburred them, cleaned each primer pocket, and then set primers in each one. my hands are gonna thank me tomorrow im sure of it, but now im ready to start working on making some more rounds
i can see how the run out would create an issue, by the time the bullet has travelled that far, having left the gun at any sort of angle would just through it all to crap. ill check the next batch for run out and hope its not too bad.
thanks for all the help. ill try and get the video up tonight
heres a video of my wife shooting the 700. this was her second shot with it, shes not used to the 5 ounce trigger yet so it went off a little early thats why she laughed a little. but its nice to see how flat the gun stayed with the brake. before the brake this thing would leave the bench and land facing who knows where.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIIsptZO3MA&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIIsptZO3MA&feature=youtu.be
Although I do not shoot off a bipod (target rifle guy, with slings and iron sights) I do know you should be preloading your bipod with forward pressure. Try pushing it against the forward lip of the bench and lean into a bit. Yep a muzzle brakes will not help you make many new friends at the range. That's why we do not allow them in TR/F Class competitions.
On another note. I have never annealed cases. I rarely even clean primer pockets unless they are really crudded up or have a chunk of tumbler media in the flash hole. I only trim and chamfer when they get near max length. I have an Acculab scale that measures to .02 of a grain. Each charge is weighed to the exact charge with a +.02 acceptable (to me) tolerance.
That's why we do not allow them in TR/F Class competitions.On another note. I have never annealed cases. I rarely even clean primer pockets unless they are really crudded up or have a chunk of tumbler media in the flash hole. I only trim and chamfer when they get near max length. I have an Acculab scale that measures to .02 of a grain. Each charge is weighed to the exact charge with a +.02 acceptable (to me) tolerance.
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Although I do not shoot off a bipod (target rifle guy, with slings and iron sights) I do know you should be preloading your bipod with forward pressure. Try pushing it against the forward lip of the bench and lean into a bit. Yep a muzzle brakes will not help you make many new friends at the range.
On another note. I have never annealed cases. I rarely even clean primer pockets unless they are really crudded up or have a chunk of tumbler media in the flash hole. I only trim and chamfer when they get near max length. I have an Acculab scale that measures to .02 of a grain. Each charge is weighed to the exact charge with a +.02 acceptable (to me) tolerance.
thanks for the tip i didnt know about the preloading part. ill try that for sure next time out.
i have tried to tame down the barrel hop pre brake by holding the front of the gun down a little and and found if i put too much pressure on it my accuracy would suffer a bit, did some reading and i guess the plastic stocks have a bit of give to them and it puts pressure against the barrel, apparently just enough to send the shot off course. ill try what you said though, any thing i can do to improve on my end is a bonus.
i wish i hadnt clean all of the pockets last night, my thumb took a beating and its showing today, lol.
the brake is fantastic, i still cant get over the difference it made, feels like im shooting my buddies .223 and not a 30.06 anymore.
speaking of trimming, do you chamfer and debur even if you havent had to trim the case? i tried finding the info in my book but again it wasnt there, making me think i really should find a second book. i did all the cases last night even the ones that werent trimmed just so that the case would fit nice and smooth and not get hung up on anything, some of them felt like they had a small lip on them so i wanted to make sure they were all smooth and even.
also you said you dont clean the primer pockets, i did just to be on the safe side and for my own piece of mind, but i still found that some primers took quite a big of force to press in, any thoughts on why that was or should i just suck it up and squeeze a little harder.
good to know thanks. do your bipod legs have an flex to them? mines solid although ive seen the ones with the bending legs and seen guys preload the hell out of them
