Was just looking on Joe Salter's U.S. website and saw an Artillery Luger for sale with great Canadian WW1 provenance. It was captured from a German officer by a member of the 25th battalion CEF(Nova Scotia) during the 100 days offensive in 1918. I find it very sad that this kind of history is leaving the country. It is too bad that a private Canadian historical trust couldn't be started to purchase this stuff in the interest of the nation's history. But like a lot of military weapons of historical interest perhaps they would just end up rusting in a basement somewhere instead of being displayed.
Selling Canadian Military History
- Thread starter Mike Webb
- Start date
Hi Mike,
I have long felt this is a very important topic, and there's very little awareness of what's going on here with these types of dealers.
Joe Salter exports these guns to the U.S. because it he feels that the U.S. market brings money than he will get here in Canada.
I have also seen many great pieces with Canadian provenance go to Joe Salters U.S. website, from WWI Canadian officers 1911's to rare Inglis high-power variations.
Joe does not give Canadians first shot at these, and by the time they are in the U.S. the pistols are sadly vandalized by import marks. Re-importing the guns is also a very expensive and time consuming process.
I'm not sure the laws regarding the exportation of Canadian cultural items but I don't think Joe is doing anything illegal, despite my opinion of his morals in this regard.
The only solution is to raise awareness that if you want to keep these items in Canada, do not sell to Joe Salter, or any of the other similar overpriced and export oriented dealers. Collectors Source also does a lot of exporting so Joe is not the only one. If we want to see these pieces stay in Canada they need to be sold between collectors and not to exporters.
I try to explain this whenever possible, for the benefit of the community I wish there was a sticky on the topic here on CGN to raise awareness of how much Canadian milsurp history is leaving the country due to this type of dealer.
If these guys were just exporting prohib pistols, such as 12.6 Lugers, I would have less of a problem with it since our Government already ruined the collectibility of those in Canada.
-Steve
I have long felt this is a very important topic, and there's very little awareness of what's going on here with these types of dealers.
Joe Salter exports these guns to the U.S. because it he feels that the U.S. market brings money than he will get here in Canada.
I have also seen many great pieces with Canadian provenance go to Joe Salters U.S. website, from WWI Canadian officers 1911's to rare Inglis high-power variations.
Joe does not give Canadians first shot at these, and by the time they are in the U.S. the pistols are sadly vandalized by import marks. Re-importing the guns is also a very expensive and time consuming process.
I'm not sure the laws regarding the exportation of Canadian cultural items but I don't think Joe is doing anything illegal, despite my opinion of his morals in this regard.
The only solution is to raise awareness that if you want to keep these items in Canada, do not sell to Joe Salter, or any of the other similar overpriced and export oriented dealers. Collectors Source also does a lot of exporting so Joe is not the only one. If we want to see these pieces stay in Canada they need to be sold between collectors and not to exporters.
I try to explain this whenever possible, for the benefit of the community I wish there was a sticky on the topic here on CGN to raise awareness of how much Canadian milsurp history is leaving the country due to this type of dealer.
If these guys were just exporting prohib pistols, such as 12.6 Lugers, I would have less of a problem with it since our Government already ruined the collectibility of those in Canada.
-Steve
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I'm not throwing stones at Joe Salter, he is just trying to run a business. You have to sell where the market is best. But from a historical perspective we are losing a lot. Seems to me several years ago Mr. Salter owned Billy Bishop's war medals and offered them for purchase to the Canadian War Museum and they turned him down. Couldn't find a buyer here so he exported them and the government had him charged with several offenses relating to exporting "national treasures" for sale. If they were such treasures why wouldn't the War Museum pay for them? Personally I don't see a great deal of difference in Canadian historical items being in a private collection here or in another country, either way they don't belong to the people of Canada. I think the Canadian War Museum should have a mandate and the funding to acquire these things on behalf of Canadians. AND BE FORCED TO DISPLAY THEM.
highlander
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Newfoundland
Personally, I don't have a problem with Salter selling these items on his US website, providing he make an effort to sell them to Canadians here first. Unfortunately, that isn't happening.
From being a daily viewer of his website, I have never seen an item go on the Canadian site and then, failing to sell, go to his US site. It appears that anything good that he gets goes directly to his US site; and mostly crappy stuff gets placed on the Canadian site.
The solution is simple, don't deal with him, either to buy, or more importantly, to sell. He's not going to sell much from an empty store.
From being a daily viewer of his website, I have never seen an item go on the Canadian site and then, failing to sell, go to his US site. It appears that anything good that he gets goes directly to his US site; and mostly crappy stuff gets placed on the Canadian site.
The solution is simple, don't deal with him, either to buy, or more importantly, to sell. He's not going to sell much from an empty store.
Seems like we're on the same page.
If he offered here in Canada first, I am fine with it.
There's several nice items I've seen on his site including this Arty Luger I would have purchased given the chance before export and import stamps.
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Hi Mike,
I think you're refering to the Billy Bishop and Barker 1911's Joe was offering on his U.S. website.
These pistols are now both in the collection of the Canadian War Museum, however they are not on display. I believer there's some controversy over the originality of the pistols.
-Steve
Maybe, I thought it was a medal grouping. I just remember Joe ended up in court over something of that nature.
Selling our irreplaceable history to another country SHOULD be treason. He deserves more court time. Countries all over the world are trying to get their history back that was sold out of country, firearms and militaria with provable providence should be no different.
To us it is irreplaceable, to most Canadians it is just a bunch of old stuff. Countries all over the world are trying to get artifacts back because they were flat out stolen from tombs etc. This stuff is owned by private citizens and is usually handed down from relatives who were veterans. Nobody's business WHO they sell it to if they place no value on it( and most people don't unfortunately.) Just saying that the War Museum folks should be able to save some of the important pieces and every P38 or Luger that was dragged back home from overseas IS NOT a national treasure. I wasn't trying to open a dealer bashing thread just saying there should be funds available to keep the best stuff in Canadian museums. A lot of very nice collectable Winchester rifles have ended up in the U.S. over the years for the simple fact that the market is larger so prices tend to be higher. I wouldn't fault anyone for trying to get top dollar for their personal property.
Hi Mike,
Lugercollector offered a nice Canadian 1911 with provenance here on CGN last week and I believe it sold for good money, here in Canada. This dealer always offers items to us first before exporting and I respect him very much for it, in fact I bought a very expensive piece from him not all that long ago.
Joe does not give Canadian collectors a chance before exporting.
I would have probably bought the Luger you reference in the initial post if it was offered in Canada first. I have tried calling Joe directly in the past to purchase other pieces I've know about before he exported them, and I've never had any luck. Not even a call back.
The only items offered on Joes Canadian site is all stuff that cannot be exported, or is not overly desirable in the U.S.
It's hard not to be negative when this dealer doesn't even give Canadian collectors a chance, and then import marks the items. Militaria is different because it's not vandalized when entering the U.S. and can easily be shipped back and forth with only small fees.
My disappointment in this dealer is not about his desire to make top dollar, it's about him exporting our cultural history without even giving us first shot at it.
If Joe Salter were to offer a chance for Canadian collectors to buy these items before he exports them, I will change my opinion. Until then, I would never reccammend anyone sell their collections to this dealer.
-Steve
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You have a point there, Steve.
I didn't realize there was a complete lack of desire on Joe's part to let us have a crack at anything.
I don't see the problem for him as a dealer, he has Downeast Trading (his Canadian subsidiary) already set up.
He would just have to advertise items there first if they are already in Canada even at high asking prices.
If they don't sell domestically, flip them to the U.S. for sale.
I have known Joe Salter for many years and find him to be reputable dealer and person. The reason that such firearms are finding their way to the US is the fact that Canadian collectors are reluctant to pay the going rate for such items. A good example is a Colt once owned by Prime Minister Louis St-Laurent which Joe tried for years to sell in Canada along with a Karsh portrait of him with no success. He finally exported the piece to the US where it was sold as a ordinary Colt. Joe still has the portrait if anyone is interested. As to the Billy Bishop, Billy Barker 1911's, several attempts to sell these pieces were made to the Canadian War Museum with no success. Also the guns were widely advertised all across Canada again, with no success. The guns were finally exported to the US at the request of the owner (not Joe). The trumped up charges were completely withdrawn before any court appearances as a result of a review by the Crown and the firearms were returned to their owner. I believe that these charges were instigated, base upon information I am aware of, by a well known museum or one of its representatives under the Cultural Properties Act with the intention of obtaining these pieces without having to pay for them. Museums in this country either do not have the means nor interest in obtaining firearms for their collections. Some consider them to be not politically correct. Try and find a firearm (other than one wall gun and the repros carried by the actors) at Fortress Louisbourg. The museum at Annapolis Royal in Nova Scotia is worse and a museum in New Brunswick destroyed its historical arms collection when a new curator took over. Obviously he saw no historical value in firearms. Sad. I know that Joe has advertised firearms on the Canadian site before exporting them and he has re-imported certain firearms for Canadian collectors. Of note the import marks are quite small and unobtrusive. Unfortunately, Americans seem to appreciate history more than we do.
Ken Chislett
Ken Chislett
- Location
- Manitoulin Island
Unfortunately many of our Canadian museums have back storage areas full of stuff that never sees the light of day. I know an individual who salvaged some useful historic firearm stuff from dumpsters behind the CWM. A whole load of Ross rifles ended up in Sault St. Marie to go through the blast furnace from our uncaring Govt. Fortunately, some of the barreled actions "fell off the truck". The wood was undoubtedly burnt out behind an armoury after being stripped. Too bad we can't sue the GOVT for destruction of historical artifacts.
Bill
Bill
Thanks for the input Ken. That is the story that I couldn't find the details of. And the charges were trumped up in hopes of basically stealing someone's property for a museum. I used to visit the New Brunswick Museum back in the 1970's and they had an incredible collection of historical firearms ON DISPLAY that were DONATED to the museum. All destroyed? They should have saved one to shoot the curator with. But I don't think Americans appreciate history any more than Canadians there are just more prospective buyers there.
I think it is disingenuous to somehow dump all of this, or even the bulk of it on a dealer, as it takes two to tango, which includes a seller. I have been debating on and off for several months now calling him and offering up an item for sale, primarily because he is one of the few potential buyers I can think of who is a serious dealer. His reputation for buying and selling items at this end of the market makes him a prime choice if you are selling something other than a Remington 700 or grand pappys rabbit gun. The reality is he is a source of cash, not just a talker, or openly musing about buying something, that's why people (and potentially myself) use, or consider using him.
As for 'historical' artifacts, as inferred above, we have a lot of other peoples history in this country. Besides all that, what some people consider 'great Canadian history' others do not, for example I for one don't think a dead Germans luger picked up off a corpse matters at all in the greater context of Canadian history, but is merely a footnote at best. How is a souvenir gun worth more than lets say, a soldiers diary, or letters home, which monetarily wouldn't buy a new mag for the luger, but to me are actually Canadian history. The reality is for every gun or item one person thinks is unreplaceable history, another things is irrelevant. Ultimately I agree its sad some of these things don't get a 'Canada first' offer, but I what does these days.
Ouch. I assume you mean when they cleared out the gun collection back in the 90s at Fort Anne? I was disappointed when they did that, but in truth, now years later, can agree with it. It was less a focused collection than a smattering of vet bring backs, and miscellaneous stuff, that had little to do with the site. In truth what hurt was they cleared out a lot of community items, besides the guns, without really discussing it with the community. I used to be involved with a historical group in the area, and it came as a surprise that they had just warehoused things in Bedford as they saw fit when they felt it didn't fit their mandate.
Hi Ken,
Thanks for stopping by and sticking up for your friend, re-reading my earlier posts maybe I have come off a little harsh but I still disagree with how things are handled in regard to exporting/importing stamping collectible guns.
I don't know the full details of what happened to Joe with the Billy Bishop and Barker pistol, last I heard the Canadian War Museum purchased them from the consignee but this is really a seperate topic. I remember a lot of controversy over if the Billy Bishop was original or not, and that may have effected a sale. If Joe was the victim of some sort of museum or government scam, then I'm sorry to hear that. I certainly would not wish that upon anyone.
I understand the frustration he deals with selling in Canada. I get that not everything is going to sell here for the price he wants, so he exports.
All I'm saying is that instead of giving up entirely on Canadian collectors (which seems to be the current situation) he simply gives a last call before exporting and import stamping nice collectible firearms.
If he were to either create an e-mail list, post the items here on CGN, or list the items on his Canadian website first so Canadians have a chance to buy them before export/import stamping then I am completely fine with it. There are many items I would have bought before they were exported. I have put my money where my mouth is, I have bought from Joe in the past, I have e-mailed and personally called him asking to contact me when he gets things I'm interested in, but he never gets back to me. I don't know why he would prefer to export, it actually seems like unneccessary work in many cases?
I disagree about your comment of the import stamp being unobtrusive, there's a reason why most serious collectors will not buy import stamped guns. Once they are stamped, they are vandalized forever. I don't own any import stamped collectible firearms and I wouldn't start now.
Perhaps Joe will re-consider a 'last call' option for us Canadians. What harm would it do? Maybe there's a way we can convince him it's time to give Canadian collectors another shot. I know I am not the only one who's willing to buy this sort of thing, there's a lot of serious collectors in Canada these days.
-Steve
