Selling Canadian Military History

Dosing said:
As for 'historical' artifacts, as inferred above, we have a lot of other peoples history in this country. Besides all that, what some people consider 'great Canadian history' others do not, for example I for one don't think a dead Germans luger picked up off a corpse matters at all in the greater context of Canadian history, but is merely a footnote at best. How is a souvenir gun worth more than lets say, a soldiers diary, or letters home, which monetarily wouldn't buy a new mag for the luger, but to me are actually Canadian history. The reality is for every gun or item one person thinks is unreplaceable history, another things is irrelevant. Ultimately I agree its sad some of these things don't get a 'Canada first' offer, but I what does these days.
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Militaria is different, it can be shipped internationally without any issues. When militaria enters the U.S. it is not stamped or vandalized in anyway and to ship it back to Canada is simple and inexpensive.

It doesn't matter if the gun is Canadian, American, German, or any other nation. If you can sell it in Canada first, why export it or import stamp it?

Whether you feel the Luger had a Canadian connection or not, I suspect it would have sold for good money here. It's not as simple as shipping back a diary or letters, it would now need to be re-imported at a large cost and will always have the U.S. import stamp on the barrel.

-Steve
 
Maybe the Canadian government should confiscate every Canadian surplus gun so they can't leave the country.
Or just make a rule that prohibits selling them to anyone who's family hasn't lived in the country for at least five generations.
Or make it a requirement for anyone selling a gun to knock on every door in Canada first to make sure no one here wants it. After a 50 year waiting period, they are allowed one classified ad in America. And then the government keeps the money from the sale, because after all, its Canadian history. And how can anyone but the Canadian government claim to own that?
 
That isn't what we are talking about and you know it.
No, not every P38/luger/duffel cut rifle brought back is a national treasure. We are talking about firearms and militaria that goes beyond that. Battlefield capture at famous battles, medal groupings, famous Canadians firearms are what we are talking about. Not run of the mill milsurps
Andy said:
I suppose then that we should no longer collect non-Canadian milsurps otherwise we're hypocrites.
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Joe has a number of Canadian militaria on his site including item #020183 - rare Halifax Artillery Helmet Badge, #024778 - Robert Stanfield's presentation 1867-1967 Winchester, #16441 - 3rd Model Brown Bess issued to the N.B. Militia and #020181 - an extremely rare Pictou Garrison Artillery Badge. I don't see anyone jumping on these Canadian Historical items. As one user posted, the Luger is nothing more an a WW I souvenir picked up on a battlefield or taken from a captured German soldier. There is a cost to putting these items on the site and posting an item such as the Luger in question then transferring it to the US site when it doesn't sell increases said costs. Plus there is a lengthy waiting period for BATF approval on importing firearms into the US. Joe has a business to run. As to the the comments on the Bishop/Baker 1911's, it is my understanding (based on good info) that provenance on these pieces is questionable.
 
KPC said:
Joe has a number of Canadian militaria on his site including item #020183 - rare Halifax Artillery Helmet Badge, #024778 - Robert Stanfield's presentation 1867-1967 Winchester, #16441 - 3rd Model Brown Bess issued to the N.B. Militia and #020181 - an extremely rare Pictou Garrison Artillery Badge. I don't see anyone jumping on these Canadian Historical items. As one user posted, the Luger is nothing more an a WW I souvenir picked up on a battlefield or taken from a captured German soldier. There is a cost to putting these items on the site and posting an item such as the Luger in question then transferring it to the US site when it doesn't sell increases said costs. Plus there is a lengthy waiting period for BATF approval on importing firearms into the US. Joe has a business to run. As to the the comments on the Bishop/Baker 1911's, it is my understanding (based on good info) that provenance on these pieces is questionable.
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Are you saying they may be fakes? Or just no conrete proof that they are what they are claimed to be..
 
I wouldn't believe any provenance story seen on any firearm sales site. Especially, a story about a CEF troopie bringing back a handgun. Even after W.W. I, the troopies were not allowed to bring back firearms. The only bigger fairy tale is the one about "My Grandda has his issued rifle."
Salter isn't in the business of preserving our history. He's in the antique and collector firearm business. The money and lack of government interference is Stateside. Sadly the CWM doesn't have the budget to buy everything.
 
KPC said:
Joe has a number of Canadian militaria on his site including item #020183 - rare Halifax Artillery Helmet Badge, #024778 - Robert Stanfield's presentation 1867-1967 Winchester, #16441 - 3rd Model Brown Bess issued to the N.B. Militia and #020181 - an extremely rare Pictou Garrison Artillery Badge. I don't see anyone jumping on these Canadian Historical items. As one user posted, the Luger is nothing more an a WW I souvenir picked up on a battlefield or taken from a captured German soldier. There is a cost to putting these items on the site and posting an item such as the Luger in question then transferring it to the US site when it doesn't sell increases said costs. Plus there is a lengthy waiting period for BATF approval on importing firearms into the US. Joe has a business to run. As to the the comments on the Bishop/Baker 1911's, it is my understanding (based on good info) that provenance on these pieces is questionable.
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Hi Ken,

I think you're still missing the point. Those militaria items can easily be shipped back and forth between Canada and the United States without any type of import stamp or large import fees. Nobody here has any issue with Joe, or anyone else, selling militaria internationally.

The problem is unique to collectible firearms that are import stamped when they are exported to the United States. Currently, Joe does not offer these firearms to Canadians before they are vandalized and the costs of re-importing the freshly stamped firearms are very large.

I'm not sure how this could be made any more clear?

The solution is actually very simple, Joe can give some sort of 'last call' for interested parties in Canada before he exports them. While I don't claim there's anything illegal about this, it hurts the collector community in Canada. As such, this is the last person I would contact if I were thinking of selling to a dealer. I'd rather keep some collectible firearms here in Canada untouched by ugly import stamps. I guess this is a personal decision and obviously those who care only about the money will disregard my opinion entirely and happily consider selling to the U.S.

If Joe Salter changes his mind and gives Canadians another chance before exporting, I will happily change my opinion of him and would probably buy some of these items. I don't think the extra costs would be very substantial?

Edit: I do agree entirely with your assesment of those pistols in question (Bishop/Barker) which is really a topic of its own.

-Steve
 
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Imagine! A business model not meeting collector expectations. As suggested already, proposing mandates for Canadian guns means re-evaluating imported gems.

Before crying "Oh the horror", it may be worth considering that the gems we hold dear for historical reasons may also be dear to our neighbors too. Since the whoopin' of 1812, we have fought side-by-side with this nation. Means that collectors there may want to cherish them too. Honestly, I have space in my heart for a Garand, or 30-40 Krag. I'm certain if there were no market, they wouldn't be exported!

Being a "no problems, only solutions" kind of fella, I'm curious if OP has contacted Salter? Maybe provide a shopping list of "cherished items" and a little front money to demonstrate serious purchasing intentions?

It would seem that if the honour of the fallen is a consideration, then a thread like this might be the penultimate of disrespect to those fallen. Unless of course there has been contact with Salter, and not just an expressed opinion on a forum.
 
This is one thing seeing guns heading to the US market away from purchase within Canada and then receiving the hated import markings, far, far, worse still is the impending destruction of Canadian made Inglis HPs by our own government should the GSP ever be decided upon.
 
camster said:
Imagine! A business model not meeting collector expectations. As suggested already, proposing mandates for Canadian guns means re-evaluating imported gems.

Before crying "Oh the horror", it may be worth considering that the gems we hold dear for historical reasons may also be dear to our neighbors too. Since the whoopin' of 1812, we have fought side-by-side with this nation. Means that collectors there may want to cherish them too. Honestly, I have space in my heart for a Garand, or 30-40 Krag. I'm certain if there were no market, they wouldn't be exported!

Being a "no problems, only solutions" kind of fella, I'm curious if OP has contacted Salter? Maybe provide a shopping list of "cherished items" and a little front money to demonstrate serious purchasing intentions?

It would seem that if the honour of the fallen is a consideration, then a thread like this might be the penultimate of disrespect to those fallen. Unless of course there has been contact with Salter, and not just an expressed opinion on a forum.
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Hi camster,

I believe many collectors have mentioned this to Joe including myself. I have contacted him and his wife on the East Coast several times, and called Joe personally. I have made several purchases from Joe Salter in the past few years.

There is certainly nobody calling "oh the horror" here, instead just an honest discussion of how this dealer does business. At this point, I think it's pretty obvious how things are run and should it change in the future, I would be happy to see that information added to this thread. I don't know what else is left to be discussed in that regard and those of us who are a little disappointed in what is happing have stated our position.

Please explain to us how you feel that this thread regarding the collecting of military history might somehow be the "penultimate disrespect to the fallen"? It seems like everyone here has some interest in preserving these items. I think if anyone is disrespecting our military history it's those who are set on destroying all of these firearms, not the people on this board or in our collectible firearms industry.

-Steve
 
sunray said:
I wouldn't believe any provenance story seen on any firearm sales site. Especially, a story about a CEF troopie bringing back a handgun. Even after W.W. I, the troopies were not allowed to bring back firearms. The only bigger fairy tale is the one about "My Grandda has his issued rifle."
Salter isn't in the business of preserving our history. He's in the antique and collector firearm business. The money and lack of government interference is Stateside. Sadly the CWM doesn't have the budget to buy everything.
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Actually Army officers serving in WW1 could and did purchase their own service revolvers and quite a few of these did come back as personal property. Vets returning from Europe after WW2 did bring back a wide assortment of things no matter about regulations to the contrary. I own my uncle's personal issue S&W Pre-Victory revolver that he carried from Normandy to VE Day and mailed home in pieces with other souvenirs. I also have another Pre-Victory and a P38 that he shipped home.

When I was a kid in the 1950s we had a lot of gunnutz in the area who were veterans and who had also brought some pretty cool stuff back incl many Lugers and P38s as well as a few more exotic pieces like a Thompson SMG, STEN, an M3 greasegun (my favourite at the time) and an MP40. It was a lot of fun to listen to their stories and to get to play with, and even shoot, some of these things at a pretty tender age. I remember one guy who was very proud of how he had gotten his Luger home by cutting out the bottom of his "fuzzy water bottle" and wedging the pistol parts inside so that it didn't rattle and felt like a full water bottle. All of these old sweats are pretty much gone now and I sometimes wonder what ever happened to their souvenirs. Sadly, I expect that most got tossed down the sh$thole or into the bottom of a slough when the owners got tired of them and moved on. I remember one guy who had a stone mint Inglis HP with decal. Years later I called in to see him about it and learned that he had tossed it into his wood burning stove and then buried it.

I'd be interested in Bob Stanfield's Winchester. Bob was a modest man and a pretty genuine guy for a politician. I escorted him and his wife around the Golan Heights for a couple of days when he visited the middle east to smooth things over after Joe Clark's disastrous trip where he had ruffled a lot of feathers by saying some pretty dumb stuff. I liked Bob and his wife and thought it a shame that he was never elected PM in place of Trudeau.
 
I was buying an old CMP 3 ton truck from a fellow in Saskatchewan who was a WII vet. He related that he was a guard at the "turn in point" for the defeated Germans. He was picking a Luger from the pile when a German officer, who was about to turn in his, related to him that his Luger was a private purchase, and of much higher quality than the issued ones, and that this fellow could have his.

Later in 1946, when they were going to board the ship for the return trip home, they were told they could not bring any weapons back, and to place them in the pile. He did not. Then, when they reached Halifax, and were waiting to dock, they were told the RCMP would be searching all kit bags on exit, and anyone with weapons would be charged. He said you could hear stuff going overboard into the drink all night. But he held onto the Luger. When they dis-embarked, the RCMP were there, but all you had to do was declare the gun, and they registered them on the spot. So he registered it, and still had it then (This was back in 1995). I had no interest myself in German firearms, but kind of regret not asking to see it.

I fully believed his story, and I am overall quite cynical and have a good nose for BS.
 
Steve1987 said:
Hi camster,

I believe many collectors have mentioned this to Joe including myself. I have contacted him and his wife on the East Coast several times, and called Joe personally. I have made several purchases from Joe Salter in the past few years.

There is certainly nobody calling "oh the horror" here, instead just an honest discussion of how this dealer does business. At this point, I think it's pretty obvious how things are run and should it change in the future, I would be happy to see that information added to this thread. I don't know what else is left to be discussed in that regard and those of us who are a little disappointed in what is happing have stated our position.

Please explain to us how you feel that this thread regarding the collecting of military history might somehow be the "penultimate disrespect to the fallen"? It seems like everyone here has some interest in preserving these items. I think if anyone is disrespecting our military history it's those who are set on destroying all of these firearms, not the people on this board or in our collectible firearms industry.

-Steve
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Point by point:
i) The vendor in question is in business. These gems wouldn't be exported if the vendor was taking a loss. They would all be available here if it were equally profitable too. Unless the premise is to get these heirlooms out of country (which I doubt) for some nefarious reason (which is equally doubtful). If the intent for a commodity is to sell it, selling it for the best price makes the most sound of business sense. The disparity between markets here and our southern neighbors isn't really because of Salter. A case might be made that by flooding that market, prices may equalize...

ii) An honest discussion of how someone does business should be made from a business standpoint. What's happening here is a lament that these treasure leave our nation. ("Oh the horror" is a gross exaggeration, and I apologize). The treasures themselves are not seeking out a warmer clime. The owners want the most $'s that they can get. If it could be achieved within our own borders the treasures wouldn't leave.

iii) Regarding penultimate disrespect... That was based on not contacting the vendor in question. If anyone offered to match Yankee markets here in Canada, but the treasure was exported regardless that is a funky business policy, and worthy of lament. (Of course this is not the first season for Salter, so his own market knowledge may affect his business's efficiency by just shooting a commodity south). The notion that a thread gets started without the subject in question being aware is the penultimate of disrespect. We are cherishing the courage of the fallen by saving these heirlooms, but not displaying courage by expressing discontent about what is an obvious situation.. Again; if you have provided a wish list, and offered to match market values, but your treasure got shipped south regardless there is reason for concern. If these treasures are leaving our nation because other folks will pony up more $'s to cherish them, and suggesting the business that does it might be faulted for doing so dishonours much of what the fallen fought for.
 
camster said:
Point by point:
i) The vendor in question is in business. These gems wouldn't be exported if the vendor was taking a loss. They would all be available here if it were equally profitable too. Unless the premise is to get these heirlooms out of country (which I doubt) for some nefarious reason (which is equally doubtful). If the intent for a commodity is to sell it, selling it for the best price makes the most sound of business sense. The disparity between markets here and our southern neighbors isn't really because of Salter. A case might be made that by flooding that market, prices may equalize...

ii) An honest discussion of how someone does business should be made from a business standpoint. What's happening here is a lament that these treasure leave our nation. ("Oh the horror" is a gross exaggeration, and I apologize). The treasures themselves are not seeking out a warmer clime. The owners want the most $'s that they can get. If it could be achieved within our own borders the treasures wouldn't leave.

iii) Regarding penultimate disrespect... That was based on not contacting the vendor in question. If anyone offered to match Yankee markets here in Canada, but the treasure was exported regardless that is a funky business policy, and worthy of lament. (Of course this is not the first season for Salter, so his own market knowledge may affect his business's efficiency by just shooting a commodity south). The notion that a thread gets started without the subject in question being aware is the penultimate of disrespect. We are cherishing the courage of the fallen by saving these heirlooms, but not displaying courage by expressing discontent about what is an obvious situation.. Again; if you have provided a wish list, and offered to match market values, but your treasure got shipped south regardless there is reason for concern. If these treasures are leaving our nation because other folks will pony up more $'s to cherish them, and suggesting the business that does it might be faulted for doing so dishonours much of what the fallen fought for.
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Well put. A few guys on here have gotten a little personal in my opinion. I didn't start the thread to bash any dealer/ exporter, EVERYONE has a right to run their business as they see fit. This is still a free country(for now). Just find it lamentable that quite a bit of Canadian military history has gone south.
 
The War Museum is a watered down version of what it could be. I was at the old one when they were fundraising for the new museum, and they had attendants wheeling around carts of items that aren't displayed. Apparently, giving money was to enable them to build a facility where they could display their treasures such as a genuine WW1 trench mace made from a chair leg and a piece of chain. When I held that item, I felt electrified. They still don't display the good stuff, and its basically the same museum as the old one.. just more walking room and lame art.
 
Mike Webb said:
Well put. A few guys on here have gotten a little personal in my opinion. I didn't start the thread to bash any dealer/ exporter, EVERYONE has a right to run their business as they see fit. This is still a free country(for now). Just find it lamentable that quite a bit of Canadian military history has gone south.
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I have to be careful. I want Canadiana in Canada as much as anyone. I personally can't afford it... The fact our only "touching" neighbor can house them, fought beside those that carried them, and will pay more for them isn't Salter's fault... it's ours'.
 
camster said:
Point by point:
i) The vendor in question is in business. These gems wouldn't be exported if the vendor was taking a loss. They would all be available here if it were equally profitable too. Unless the premise is to get these heirlooms out of country (which I doubt) for some nefarious reason (which is equally doubtful). If the intent for a commodity is to sell it, selling it for the best price makes the most sound of business sense. The disparity between markets here and our southern neighbors isn't really because of Salter. A case might be made that by flooding that market, prices may equalize...
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I'm just not sure this is the case any more. There are many members here on CGN who will pay U.S. marker value these days.

5 or 10 years ago I think things were different, but now we see members paying full U.S. market value + import costs.

Scott Gahimer who is a big seller of collectible 1911's has told me some Canadians are buying from him and having them imported to Canada. The collectors who are doing this are paying huge money.

I have sold a few collections myself and never thought I was being lowballed by buyers, I have always been happy and seen no reason to have to export the items.

I'm not so sure Canadian collectors are as cheap as some of you guys might think? It seems kind of crazy to assume that nobody in Canada is willing to pay a fair price for a nice collectible firearm.

-Steve
 
The thing is that Canadian military historyis all over the place, every CF base has a funded museum plus there are regimental museums and the war museum. You can bet there no less than a dozen lugers brought back by Canadians in boxes waiting for display space.
 
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