Semi auto hunter

Joel I have heard that alot of game is taken out east in the under 100 yard distances, this is likely due to the greater forested areas out east. I am speculating here, as my eastern experiences are Toronto and Guelph. Out west we have both forested and open plains to hunt depending on which direction 1 chooses to drive for an hour.
The long distance thing is bigger out here for that reason.
I think truth be known most game out here also falls in the 200 yard or less distances.
Discipline is indeed everything no matter what the game. My own kids both hunt and I notice a real difference in how well they shoot depending on the rifle in hand, I must confess in my youth go fast guns held an appeal, but being old school was brought up with a bolt gun and " here is your shell, make it count" It has served me well
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Darryl Sorry if I offended you, unfortunately being in the business for 30 years or so, 1 does get jaded. Not a day goes by when I don't get someone asking for a way to ensure fast follow up shots, and ofcourse semis are usually the topic. Unfortunately most are also younger shooters.
To learn shooting and hunting skills on any rifle is a great step.
Yes there are ethical hunters that use all sorts of rifles , to be sure.
Unfortunately young shooters of today are becoming more dependant on mag capacity than accuracy. This new mentality is also evident in Law Enforcement it seems as well. In the old days when all you had was 6 you made the 1st 2 count, that sadly does not seem to be the case any longer. The statistics back this up.
Take a young person to the games arcade, give them a quarter on a shooting game that has fast trigger and see what the scores are, compared to aiming and shooting the same game shooting single shot, that you get. You will see what I mean. Young people typically seem to lack patience in most things.
I personally do not believe a semi auto is a proper starting hunter rifle, for several reasons.
Semi autos do have a greater perpensity to mechanical failure than bolts. Not something desireable for the inexperienced.
Semi autos are harder to be sure are safe, and can be more difficult to unload safely, as there have been cases of the bolts slipping and discharging the round, during unloading. Not common granted, but certainly any accidental discharge can ruin a new hunters prospects.
Semi autoso encourage a sense of having faster second or third or fourth shots rapidly at hand, hence it is easy to get into the spray and pray mode mentally.
Please don't get me wrong, I have no problem with semi autos for some things, but just don't feel they are the best starting point for a new shooter/hunter

Intersting side note, it appears that most down east favor semis for hunting, yet out west the bolt guns rule. Strange??
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No offense at all, just a way to pick your brain as to what you mean. As I said, your a very Knowledgable shooter, and wanted to understand what your opinion was based on. The best way I can explain the difference of tools here to out west is that party hunting is more a part of our hunt out here than the guns themselves. Often your hunting for a group, and if three deer come through, your expected to shoot them. For most hunters, a semi, lever or pump is more of a viable tool for this particular reason.
I've shot more groups of animals than I have singles in my short hunting career. and I can tell you from experience, Im much better off with a lever, semi or pump where I rifle hunt than a bolt gun on 90% of our stands.
But like golf, you dont use a putter from the tee, and i wholly believe in the right tool for the job. this is why i have a whack of guns that fit different applications. ATR, we have some thinck bush out here, and I learned first hand why a 5-15x50 scope isnt the best option in open hardwoods.
I would have shot my biggest buck this year had I chose the right tool for the job. and my semi would have fit much better than my 243 based on the sight combination.

we have much shorter rifle seasons than out west, and to most guys you get what you get. I've got guys that have hunted with me for years, and havent shot deer in 5years. its not that they're bad hunters, its just they havent been on the right run at the right time. There are more people out here, and in alot of cases, there is more hunting pressure in a short period of time on a given area making the deer smart.
the hunting style is much different in alot of cases, and this is why we're more accepting of a semi than other provinces.
I've had two separate occasions where a semi had made a difference to me, and the meatpole.
The group I hunt with never shoots all of our tags, we dont need that much meat, but we work hard for every deer we shoot in rifle season. And if your group works hard, and you dont come through, your letting everyone down.
A semi helps with quick follow up shots on multiple targets, not to spray and pray.
I agree that someone without proper guidance could be jaded by their ability to do so, but anyone I've taught learned that #1 matters more than anything. Once the noise starts , the game gets out of dodge quick.
You dont want to scare em before you shoot em:D
 
Do I understand you correctly, that Ontario allows hunter a, to shoot hunter, b's and c's and even d's animals and use their tags?
If thats the case I can't blame a guy for wanting use his G3
Out here if 1 gets caught doing that they are in DEEP ####!!
 
ATR, I was at the gunstore once and talked to some yanks who had a cottage near here for the summer and they told me about hunting your way and 300 yard shots being way more common. I guess thats why I love brush calibers and rifles, but I'm an LR lover too. I don't have my own custom rig yet, but I am still building it.

You're entirely right about the forested terrain...thats what limits the ranges here. Where I was cutting this year, there are tons and tons of deer feeding on tree tops. I'm gonna try and get some pics for the board this weekend. If I can't shoot em with rifles I'll shoot em with film :)

Even with our rock throwing distance and brush guns, discipline is still a factor when we learn to hunt, so I figure it would be a little more problematic with a rifle a learner is actually used to going bang-bang-bang with, like you thought. Not saying the lad can't overcome it!

And the range limitations aren't going to stop me from hitting the bush with a long range rig this season...fields are rare, but we do have em!
 
for the sake of this argument I'll try to extrapolate to the auto fire.
Most of you guys have fired full automatic rifles. (not 223s)
I was amazed by the imprecision of the fire and how long before do I have to plan the shoot in order to get that pesky steel plate.
Same thing with the semi.... but a bit easier.
It takes discipline to plan the second shot, the recoil , the "comeback on the sights...the probable position of the next target... the necessary instant estimate if the first shot did the job and move to next or not....

It takes discipline and training. More than a bolt rifle.
But like Darryl said.... we all had our own paths and a great hunter material is rarely wasted. Even if he starts plinking with the 10/22 and dreams about becoming a sniper after seing Tom Berenger's.

I gues all of us stop being what we are when we stop learning being what we are. Same applies for when we stop making a difference for the people we have around us.

I like using a M1A in the Ontario woods, but would definately move to a 6.5x55 for BC. :)
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Do I understand you correctly, that Ontario allows hunter a, to shoot hunter, b's and c's and even d's animals and use their tags?
If thats the case I can't blame a guy for wanting use his G3
Out here if 1 gets caught doing that they are in DEEP ####!!
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Yes my friend, thats exactly it.
We have say 8 guys in a group. if one guy has 8 deer run infront of him, its perfectly legal to shoot all 8 deer for your group.
 
DarrylDB said:
Yes my friend, thats exactly it.
We have say 8 guys in a group. if one guy has 8 deer run infront of him, its perfectly legal to shoot all 8 deer for your group.
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Well that certainly answers many questions. Unreal.
I just can't decide if its a good thing ,
I have on any given day probably 100 deer on property I own ( 6 sections), and can easily see over 1/2 of them every time I am out. Yet every year only about 20 are harvested, the management zone I am in is about 150 sq miles in size and the government allows only 200 tags for the zone, so roughly 175 deer are taken in the zone overall
Do you guys have that many animals that this style of hunting can be sustained?
 
This is a very civilized debate and it is refreshing to see two individuals whose hunting experience is very different share information.:cool:

Well that certainly answers many questions. Unreal.
I just can't decide if its a good thing ,
I have on any given day probably 100 deer on property I own ( 6 sections), and can easily see over 1/2 of them every time I am out. Yet every year only about 20 are harvested, the management zone I am in is about 150 sq miles in size and the government allows only 200 tags for the zone, so roughly 175 deer are taken in the zone overall
Do you guys have that many animals that this style of hunting can be sustained?
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Good question ATR...
I understand that a section is 640 square acres... six sections is a large chunk of property... I am very jealous.
Even in the low deer density areas on Ontario a 150 square mile area would produce seasonal deer kills in the thousands.... yup I said thousands!:eek:
In the south and central portions of the province multiple deer tags are the rule of thumb... up to six per hunter and we are encouraged to fill all our tags to help control the population.
The deer herd in Ontario has grown steadily for over 20 years... and shows no sign of slowing down.:)

The East and the West are diametrically opposed in many ways with regard to hunting. I suppose that this separation affects our attitudes as much as our hunting experience affects our choices.
I think we would all be well served by keeping an open mind and supporting each other regardless of our personal views. JBRO.;)
 
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BIGREDD said:
This is a very civilized debate and it is refreshing to see two individuals whose hunting experience is very different share information.:cool:



Good question ATR...
I understand that a section is 640 square acres... six sections is a large chunk of property... I am very jealous.
Even in the low deer density areas on Ontario a 150 square mile area would produce seasonal deer kills in the thousands.... yup I said thousands!:eek:
In the south and central portions of the province multiple deer tags are the rule of thumb... up to six per hunter and we are encouraged to fill all our tags to help control the population.
The deer herd in Ontario has grown steadily for over 20 years... and shows no sign of slowing down.:)

The East and the West are diametrically opposed in many ways with regard to hunting. I suppose that this separation affects our attitudes as much as our hunting experience affects our choices.
I think we would all be well served by keeping an open mind and supporting each other regardless of our personal views. JBRO.;)
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BigRedd It is useless property that has been handed down through the family, nothing to be jealous over, except it gives me a nice 2 mile long range, and more taxes to pay yearly.
I had no idea the east had so many deer.
Certainly my experience in Canada is that the east and west do think, and operate differently.

Having some light shed on how hunting is out your way has been helpful to understand the Ontario hunters equipment preferences.
Thanks
 
I would have to say - at least form this forum's gatherings that even though the East has less density in population, the success rate is not smaller.
Down here deer have so many places to hide that unless you have the back yard as hunting ground or happen to be hunting @ the right time of the move..... there's a good chance you go home empy handed.

I hunted a property with a buddy..... 2 (read two) day season.
We dressed in camo just so we fool our wifes we're hunting. Might as well have gotten shorts and maybe a sweater for the night. No deer.

I have to drive over 600 km to hunt deer with a rifle.
we have deer here, but unless they happen to be on the move in those two days of MZ/ shotgun seazon....
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
BigRedd It is useless property that has been handed down through the family, nothing to be jealous over, except it gives me a nice 2 mile long range, and more taxes to pay yearly.
I had no idea the east had so many deer.
Certainly my experience in Canada is that the east and west do think, and operate differently.

Having some light shed on how hunting is out your way has been helpful to understand the Ontario hunters equipment preferences.
Thanks
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Two miles???? you lucky SOB.
The most I've had the opportunity to shoot is 700 meters.

:D I'd love to see a guy make a mile shot.

ATR, your a very respectable guy. Most dont take the time to understand the difference in hunting culture from one shore to the other here in Canada.
Out here hunting big game (moose and deer) is more of a group oriented task than in most other provinces. I think this was spurred by game shortages in the earlier part of the century based on human population density here.
I remember when doe tags in the area we rifle hunt were about 15%, and some areas were 3 day hunts and that was it. No bow season...
And Im only 28.
Alot of the oldtimers we used to hunt with often talk of the days when you saw one or two deer every few years.
Not that they were bad hunters, but the 60's out here was a hard time for game. Co-operation between individuals became the only way to hunt successfully.
Since the mid eighties, deer populations have been on a steady upswing to the point now that REDD says. I riflehunt in a WMU that still only allows one tag, and you still have to apply for a doe tag though now over 50% success. (but I still bought 4 tags in different WMU's and had one tag unused at the end of the season, bow season that is:D )
Im not hunting in the best location I can, but the hunt is one time of the year I get together with my family. (second cousins and extended family and good friends) and its more about the huntcamp experience than the meat.
Its a family property owned by my cousin, and though its not the best deer property in the area, but its tradition Im not willing to break.
Its like going on a vacation with eight buddies for a week every year.
My rifle season is the most important week of the year for me, and I could care less if I shoot anything. But if I do, its a bonus, and if I miss, its an excuse to become the butt end of the camp jokes for a year.:redface:
I guess what Im trying to say is that our "gun" hunt is more of a co-operative effort than most other provinces and states have, and I cherish it.
I guess if I had only a week to hunt a year, i might opt to go to a few different places, but I've got some incredible areas to bowhunt, so meat in rifle season to me isnt near as important as getting away with my dad and the guys. Hunting out west seems more of a solitary or small group effort, and the terrain is much different. Which is why a semi, lever or pump is regarded much higher out her as a viable tool than in many western provinces.
 
Darryl
Your last post is RIGHT ON!!
This thread has been most enlightening.
I agree the actual kill time is , to me irrelavent, the time out together with the kids or buddies is far more valuable.
Funny to, I remember in the mid 60s our family driving hours to "hunting" territory, spending a week hunting and having little success rate.
My last years total season , I managed to get 1 antelope, both species of deer, and a moose.
My total time in the fields was about 20 hours, not including drive time. I do have the advantage however of being out in the fields regularly, either shooting or observing, this ofcourse benefits me greatly, knowing where the critters are. Also being able to see them in open fields all through the summer makes it easy to find them in the fall. My moose died 1140 yards out , being shot from my buddies backyard that over looks his alfalfa field, there was no way to sneak up on her. No place to hide in 4" of stubble.
The deer were both in the 500 to 700 range marks the antelope 400.
This can be typical of hunting in southern Alberta.
I do not suggest taking shot like I do without some truly serious LR range time. I spend as much time at my range as time permits and know precisely what my rifles will do.
The real problem I see with my style of hunting is that there is not the "bonding" experiences your style seems to promote. I like your style better.
Yours may not fill the freezer as well, but Safeway can fix that. Mine does little for family value building, and for that I have no cure.
Thank you for the enlightnment
 
ATR, on the other side of the coin, I love reading about hunting out there, and the monster muleys and serious LR shooting. Simply because its different than the vast majority of hunting opportunities we get out here.


Some people think party hunting should be illegal, as it is in some provinces, but its truly a "Team sport" with regards to hunting. Unfortunately, because the opportunity isnt there, alot of hunters from the west shun the thought of shooting someone elses tag not realizing the difference in hunting situations season, and hunting culture.


We all have truly great opportunities in whatever province we come from, or hunt in. One of the things that makes me keep coming back to this site is the information shared and learned from everyone here across the country.
Im glad we can all learn from each other here, its what makes this place tick.

(and the WSM vs belted mags or 270 Vs 280 debate :) )

I've learned that when its time to build a LR toy, your the right guy to talk to.Hopefully soon ;)
I just got a new gravy job :):):):)
 
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DarrylDB said:
ATR, on the other side of the coin, I love reading about hunting out there, and the monster muleys and serious LR shooting. Simply because its different than the vast majority of hunting opportunities we get out here.


Some people think party hunting should be illegal, as it is in some provinces, but its truly a "Team sport" with regards to hunting. Unfortunately, because the opportunity isnt there, alot of hunters from the west shun the thought of shooting someone elses tag not realizing the difference in hunting situations season, and hunting culture.


We all have truly great opportunities in whatever province we come from, or hunt in. One of the things that makes me keep coming back to this site is the information shared and learned from everyone here across the country.
Im glad we can all learn from each other here, its what makes this place tick.

(and the WSM vs belted mags or 270 Vs 280 debate :) )

I've learned that when its time to build a LR toy, your the right guy to talk to.Hopefully soon ;)
I just got a new gravy job :):):):)
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What a nice post Daryl...group hug.....:)
It's sure nice to see a civilized thread with members willing to accept situations & styles that happen to be diff than their own:)

You made a mistake in this line thou "and the WSM vs belted mags or 270 Vs 280 debate" there is no debate here! some of us more knowledgable hunters are just trying to enlighten the less experienced ones why the 280 is far.. superior to the 270 :) it's just some people have a harder time accepting the facts :D :D
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Do I understand you correctly, that Ontario allows hunter a, to shoot hunter, b's and c's and even d's animals and use their tags?
If thats the case I can't blame a guy for wanting use his G3
Out here if 1 gets caught doing that they are in DEEP ####!!
Click to expand...


We can shoot a deer for any member of the gang, and he doesn't have to be beside you either, as long as he's within 5km, and you can contact him with a radio immediately. Same goes for moose.

The last count for whitetails I believe was around the 400,000 mark. Some gangs here have 20-30 guys and they fill or almost fill there tags EVERY year. One I know of harvested 16 bucks this year, that's all that came out to them. Something like eight 8-pointers, some 10's and a couple 12's.

That being said, in most of southern ontario, it's almost like shooting cattle now, they'll walk right by you, maybe even stop to look.
 
I like when knowledgeable folks say "Semis and pumps suck!! Nuff said!!" :rolleyes:

beatdeadhorse.gif
 
Spend $2-$400 and get him a used bolt gun. An autoloader is not a good idea for a new hunter. Or for that matter an old hunter
 
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