Sheep Changes Coming
- Thread starter sheephunter
- Start date
When I say I don't understand you I actually mean that...I don't understand what you are saying.
Been reading this thread for awhile and I thought I'd chime in from a slightly different prospective. I am a relatively new hunter, and getting a Sheep is very high on my list, right under and elk. And while I would love a big Trophy Ram, I just want a Ram because I am just starting out. Obviously I'm talking about an older ram still, but this full curl thing would hurt hunters like myself who want to get started, as there simply will never be a ton of Full curl Rams, because nature will take its course for probably at least half of them. So you are drawing from a extremely thin pool
Sheep hunting is hard, very hard. There's not a ton of 4/5 rams out there either and if they change from 4/5 to full curl it will be even tougher for a few years but should get back to normal harvest levels.
I'm not exactly sure what SRD thinks the problem is here, I'm guessing people having been #####ing to them about not being able to find really big rams or not seeing enough rams while out huinting? Or maybe it's because our minister's tag went for what they consider peanuts last year(75K I think)?
WMU 400 has been on full curl for almost a decade and the hunting there is pretty decent after a few lean years. I have hunted in the Willmore too and I think they could easily swtich to a full curl reg and have it be a minor speed bump. I also spent a few weeks in the Clearwater area and I think this is where a lot of the problem is.
I have to laugh when they propose a reg change like this that captures so much of the province, since these affected areas are so different from one another in term of almost everything. Not to mention that these seem to be the only solutions they are willing to come up with. When this province is in desperate need of habitat enhancement among othere things.
Anyways, I wish you good luck in your sheep hunting, but know that sheep hunting is hard and there's so much more to it than just getting a ram. Those mountains are humbling.
I'm curious how you figure harvest levels will get back to normal when we are removing a percentage of rams from the potential harvest that will now never be legal due to horn shape, brooming and natural mortality. Not all4/5 rams will become legal full curl rams. Where are these extra full curl rams going to come from?
The MSL tag sold for a respectable $150k last year. Considering the quality of ram that the auction buyer took this year.....I suspect the tag should sell well again in 2015.
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You're right it went for 150K, for reason I thought the guy that bid on it was the first and only bid and then ended up letting someone else buy it. I also thought it went for less. But none the less, I remeber people talking about how it didn't sell for as much as they had expected and were a little dissapointed in the outcome of the auction.
I believe the idea of a fullcurl ram reg is to also increase the overall population of sheep over time, more sheep=more rams, if the percentage of rams that reach full curl remains somewhat constant then with more rams out there there should be close to the same amount of legal rams at full curl within a certain time period.
There's a lot of rams 4/5 rams that get shot that are under 7 years of age, you allow these to grow another 2 years thus increasing the population. Ideally you'd also have a predation control measure and habitat enhancement program in place as well.
How many of the rams killed in Alberta are currently full curl class?
Obviously there will be some rams with full curl potential that broom back, but the potential is still there.
I believe the idea of a fullcurl ram reg is to also increase the overall population of sheep over time, more sheep=more rams, if the percentage of rams that reach full curl remains somewhat constant then with more rams out there there should be close to the same amount of legal rams at full curl within a certain time period.
There's a lot of rams 4/5 rams that get shot that are under 7 years of age, you allow these to grow another 2 years thus increasing the population. Ideally you'd also have a predation control measure and habitat enhancement program in place as well.
How many of the rams killed in Alberta are currently full curl class?
Obviously there will be some rams with full curl potential that broom back, but the potential is still there.
Actually everyone I spoke with was very pleased with how the MSL sold......especially considering many of the permits were down 50% or more.
So how will full curl regulations increase the number of sheep on the mountain other than increasing the percentage of non-legal rams of course.
By allowing rams to grow from 5 to say 8 years old, we will lose about 18% of those rams just to natural mortality.
We only need look west to BC to see how many rams broom back and never reach full curl. The government has sold this by saying we are killing all the fast growing rams and harming the genetics. Won't this do the same thing?
So how will full curl regulations increase the number of sheep on the mountain other than increasing the percentage of non-legal rams of course.
By allowing rams to grow from 5 to say 8 years old, we will lose about 18% of those rams just to natural mortality.
We only need look west to BC to see how many rams broom back and never reach full curl. The government has sold this by saying we are killing all the fast growing rams and harming the genetics. Won't this do the same thing?
swinginberrys
Regular
- Location
- Mallorytown
Please excuse my ignorance (i know absolutely nothing about sheep hunting) but I am curious. I've only read a few pages of this thread and the legal ram thing keeps popping up regarding the rams that will never reach full curl. Why couldn't they do something similar to our anterless deer validation tag in Ontario (aka doe tag) they could issue X number of less than full curl tags with stipulations attached. Any merit to this or is it even relevant?
Lots of options for sure but the main question is why are we changing anything? What we are doing seems to be working just fine both for the health of the herd and hunter opportunity other than in the opinion of one biologist that has a deeply vested interest in changing things.
I completely disagree with any form or wildlife management that is aimed at producing what someone thinks is a better looking trophy animal. The appearance of the horns, antlers, etc... of an animal is not proof of good genetics from the welfare of the species view point. If you want to manipulate what an animal looks like join the 4H.
I don't buy the harming the genetics BS, never have and never will.
WMU 400 has a full curl reg, there are full curl rams there, there are also monster broomed rams that aren't full curl and despite this there are still full curl rams in that zone. Shocking, I know.
Look, I don't think that the full curl rule will be great on it's own. But it has potential if coupled with other strategies. I also don't believe that making a blanket change to half the province is the right answer since every areas poses different challenges and some don't even need anything changed at all, save of course for habitat work, but that would be a plus in any area.
WMU 400 has a full curl reg, there are full curl rams there, there are also monster broomed rams that aren't full curl and despite this there are still full curl rams in that zone. Shocking, I know.
Look, I don't think that the full curl rule will be great on it's own. But it has potential if coupled with other strategies. I also don't believe that making a blanket change to half the province is the right answer since every areas poses different challenges and some don't even need anything changed at all, save of course for habitat work, but that would be a plus in any area.
Part of the reason I am so interested in. I'm in very good shape, I like to be on the move. Big reason why I like Elk hunting as well. Can't wait to experience it. For me my first hunt will probably be with an outfitter, later when I am actually out west I will hunt with buddies.
Agreed one of the dumbest things I have ever heard regarding hunting.....
What I'm saying is you are speculating at best and then using "some people" to even boost this speculation. I don't have a definite number of mature rams that aren't full curl but from what I've witnessed (which is every bit as valid as a bunch that say otherwise) is less than 10%.
Now as for your speculation on how much mortality there is between 4/5 and full curl I'm going to suggest based on the science that you are off. This is one of the reasons I believe that full curl management is better for the herd. Giest in the seventy's postulated that when young rams are involved in breeding there mortality rate will increase. Hard lovin' on the breeding range lead to more deaths during and after the rut. I guy named Heimler (If memory serves) used this info to convince I believe Alaska to set up a zone that was 3/4, to go to 7/8 then full curl.
So what did they find? Harvest levels went up. This isn't number of rams this was harvest levels. The two reasons for this they determined were an increased number of lambs and a reduction in the deaths of immature rams mostly from a less chaotic breeding range. This is why herd structure is important. Now flame away that it was Dall Sheep but the nature of the sheep, if not their horn conformation, is similar.
Again I don't care if we change the management strategy or not, but I believe that full curl is a better strategy and hopefully we don't wake up in two years with a draw.
I'm going to suggest that I'm bang on based on Geist's Palliser Range study. Perhaps your science says different but my comment was most definitely not speculation unless of course you are bringing Geist's study under question. What does your science say the mortality from 5 years to 8 years is??
- Location
- AB foothills
Not sure where the confusion lies... LOL
You asked a question and he gave you his answer.
Thanks but I'd rather hear Tempest explain it........
Where is that study from? Who conducted it? What was the percentage of increase? What was the percentage of decrease? He called Geist's Palliser Study into question so it would be interesting to know the background on his vague comment. It was hardly an answer for someone claiming to have science on their side and calling Geist's results into question.....hence my confusion.
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I hardly brought into question any of Geist's results, from what I remember of the numbers that he published they ranged from 8-23% for rams (whether that is from this study or not I don't know) but I can't remember correlations to age class (maybe you can fill that in). So if we're talking 20% natural mortality then your numbers would hold true, if they are around 10 then your numbers are high. What I took exception to is you inclusion of the "some people" comment.
Regardless of that what I'm saying is if these sheep reported by Geist were in a hunted herd and few class IV rams are around to monitor the breeding, the mortality of those young rams could be higher than if class IV rams are around. This is was postulated by Geist, as I said before.
In answer to your questions even though I gave you this info above here it is again.
Alaska
Hiemer and Watson
In terms of harvest it was significant
There wasn't any.
There are many papers by these authors on this topic (including one that goes through a bibliography of all north American sheep that suggests some similar results) .
Regardless of that what I'm saying is if these sheep reported by Geist were in a hunted herd and few class IV rams are around to monitor the breeding, the mortality of those young rams could be higher than if class IV rams are around. This is was postulated by Geist, as I said before.
In answer to your questions even though I gave you this info above here it is again.
Alaska
Hiemer and Watson
In terms of harvest it was significant
There wasn't any.
There are many papers by these authors on this topic (including one that goes through a bibliography of all north American sheep that suggests some similar results) .
