shooting a demascus barrel?

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ciphery

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I have a 12ga damascus barreled William Parkhurst shotgun.
It has been in my family for 4 generations,so far I'm the last owner and only member to NOT fire it.
I would like to know about some light BP loads to use in the gun.
A friend of mine said that peppercorns can be soaked in hot wax then loaded and used @ close ranges on small game. The idea sounds intriguing but a bit far fetched.
Any ideas on loads? I would like to small game hunt with it at least once.
 
The old timers say to use the same volume of powder and shot. I'd start with 1 oz of shot, equivalent volume of FFg powder.

Is it a muzzle loader?
 
No it is a factory conversion gun. The firing pins are located inside what look like percussion cap nipples. It is a break action 12ga and if memory serves the barrel gently tappers to the muzzle with no chamber lip/forcing cone. So theoretically could chamber a 3 1/2" not that I would.
I've thought about making a sub caliber sleeve to strengthen the chamber area and then use a smaller gauge of ammo. Not sure about the mod though.
 
In all likelihood it is a factory made breechloading shotgun.
Look at the proof marks on the water table of the receiver and on the bottom of the barrels. These will tell the story.
There were ml guns converted to breechloading, but this was not commonly done, and when done, only the best grade guns were converted. More expensive than buying a new gun.
There are those who advise never shoot any Damascus barrelled gun. Others suggest that a Damascus barrelled gun in sound condition can be OK to shoot. In addition to the barrels, there is also the condition of the rest of the gun to be considered - tightness of action, fit of firing pins, mechanical condition of locks.
Chamber inserts are certainly an option.
 
I tightened up the breech lock.
The firing pins are new as the old ones stuck in the forward position and were mushroomed.
The left barrel is mint and the right has some internal damage that warrants a chamber insert. (Typical I'm told)
The silver inlay on all the parts is still barely there but the engraving is clear (hammers,triggers,trigger guard, action,lock bar,ejector,barrel breech,barrel rib,hand guard cap) the skip line engraving is pretty feint in places but the wood is in good shape. The locks hold and function well.
The markings say machine made on one side and Wm Parkhurst on the other. The bottom of the barrels have a crown an X and various other markings indicating the gun to be of British Origin, with Belgin pattern welded barrels.(Under the fore stock you can still see the star and bulls eye damascus pattern) The nipples remove and the firing pins then fall out after, they protrude into the chamber at a steep angle. The wood is not highly figured or wildly checkered (fore grip ending in a flur de lis like shape and a couple zig zags along the way,pistol grip same way) but the engraving and inlay make me suspect it was a middle of the road gun.
I don't want to hurt it but I really want to shoot it.
 
I normally shoot 80 gr of 2 F powder and 1 oz of shot in my 12 guage damascus guns. I use plastic shells only because they are much thinner than paper and I don't have to trim them for the usually 2 5/8" chambers. I also use fiber cushion wads intended for muzzle loading to separate powder and shot and a star crimp to keep the shot in.
The breach thickness of the barrels should be around .15" thick and the muzzles should be over .025" thick and you want to check for deep pits in the bores. Shallow pitting should not be a problem.
The wet peppercorns sounds like an urban myth to me.

The term machine made suggests an economy class gun to me

You also want to check the outside of the barrels for breaks in the welds which join the edges of the spiral wraps that form the barrels as well as the gun should not be too sloppy and floppy at the breach ie it should lock up without too much play.

cheers mooncoon
 
There are those who advise never shoot any Damascus barrelled gun.
Click to expand...

That would be a shame. There is nothing more beautiful than a nice exposed hammer SxS damascus 12 ga. As long as you use a moderate load of BP there should be no problem. Obviously the gun has to be in reasonable condition.

Currently I am using 62.5gr of FF or 46.5gr of Pyrodex RS under 1 1/8oz of #7 shot and it seems fine in my 1873 built damascus 12 ga.
 
Damascus barrels are not considered safe to shoot with any ammo. Despite Mooncoon's luck. They were made by wrapping bands of steel(none of which have modern metallurgy.) around a mandrel, heating to red hot and hammering the bands together. Where the bands meet tend to collect rust causing salts and are a weak point.
I doubt you'll find a smithy who will tell you the gun is safe to shoot, but have it looked at first.
 
I was going through my stack of Double Gun Journals and found an interesting series of articles by Sherman Bell. One focussed on pressure levels and pressure curves of black and smokeless powder loads in 12 bore chambers of the various lengths, using an actual pressure test gun.
There are a LOT of examples of conventional wisdom, frequently repeated as gospel, that have no relationship to observed results under controlled conditions.
In the last couple of weeks, I have inspected a couple of British shotguns, with high grade pattern welded Damascus barrels. One Cogswell and Harrison 12 bore, the other a Thomas Bland 20. Both were proof marked for Nitro, the 12 bore for 1 1/4 oz. loads.
 
sunray said:
Damascus barrels are not considered safe to shoot with any ammo. Despite Mooncoon's luck. They were made by wrapping bands of steel(none of which have modern metallurgy.) around a mandrel, heating to red hot and hammering the bands together. Where the bands meet tend to collect rust causing salts and are a weak point.
I doubt you'll find a smithy who will tell you the gun is safe to shoot, but have it looked at first.
Click to expand...

Mooncoon and a zillion other shooters whom love
to shoot the old guns - myself, nessy357 and ben hunchak included!
Cat
 
If you really want to, you can still have a Damascus-type barrel made by a few of the Best gunmakers. They will actually handle a current commercial proofing, too.

Damascus is as strong as anything else.... when it is made. It is after a century or so of neglect that the rust sets in between the welds and you end up with a bomb.

OTOH, keep the pressures down and you can get away with a lot.

OTOH (which makes 3 hands, for those who have been counting), the "machine made" to me sounds as if the thing actually has fluid-steel barrels with a strong Damascus PATTERN. This was common in The Olden Days; I have a couple like this. The fluid-steel barrels were actually stronger than the Damascus tubes, but "everybody knows" that Damascus is better....... so they often MADE fluid-steel barrels and then DISGUISED them to look like Damascus. Best of both worlds.

The gun should be checked over very carefully.... and it should be shot carefully (Mooncoon's load sounds respectabe to me)..... and it should be enjoyed completely.

THIS is black-powdery-antiquery-gunnery at its finest.
.
 
The real problem with Damascus barrels lies in the fact that Canada does NOT have any civilian proof houses. Here in UK there are a great many Damascus-barrelled guns still in use, mainly because they were checked out by competent gunsmiths and/or re-submitted for proof before firing.

I shoot a Damascus barrelled gun made in 1889, with suitable loads, of course, and with every confidence that it will not unpeel when I squeeze the shot off.

To say that no Damascus guns should ever be fired is not the way we see it over here. I just checked with a well-known sporting gun dealer whose company has been around since 1851 - he currently has over 150 Damascus-barrelled guns in stock, and has already sold nine this week alone.

The youngest was dated 1910.

tac
 
Amen to Sunray's post! Damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot, period. Even my 1953 Gun Digest recognized same. Low pressure loads, I have shot the gun hundreds of times in the past, blah, blah, blah. If you value your fingers and eyes, damascus barrel shotguns belong on the wall. If not, shoot away and pray for the best......
 
Sherman Bell published an article a year or so ago in The Double Gun Journal, where he tested a number of real beater-type, ancient Damascus barreled shotguns, using modern high pressure factory proof loads. Detailed measurements were taken before and after. He laid to rest the urban myth that Damascus barrels are weak and should not be fired. Unless the barrel has obvious serious corrosion problems, it is no more dangerous than a non-Damascus barrel. It is unknown where or when this myth started, but it probably began with someone blowing up their shotgun due to the usual list of things not to do. Damascus steel is very strong and flexible. The kind of worn out beaters Bell used in his tests, I wouldn't want to fire, yet all of them handled the modern smokeless, high pressure proof loads. The weakest link seemed to the the actions in one or two, which showed signs of loosening slightly.
 
I read it in a 1953 Gun Digest, it must be true.
I read it on the internet, it must be true.

I read Sherman Bell's account of the actual tests he actually performed under controlled conditions, and would tend to give credence to his observations.
The cumulative experience of 200 years of testing at the Birmingham Proof House has a certain degree of credibility.
Metallurgy being what it was 100-odd and more years, it is entirely possible that fluid steel barrels of the day were inferior to quality Damascus ones.
Inferior metallurgy was a factor in the sinking of the Titanic.
There are reasons why a given gun should or should not be fired. Sweeping generalizations are less than helpful - or accurate.
 
Shootshellz said:
Amen to Sunray's post! Damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot, period. Even my 1953 Gun Digest recognized same. Low pressure loads, I have shot the gun hundreds of times in the past, blah, blah, blah. If you value your fingers and eyes, damascus barrel shotguns belong on the wall. If not, shoot away and pray for the best......
Click to expand...

:bsFlag:

Yep! Because 1953 was the peak of the knowledge base of both metallurgy and information, and gunwriters were the guys holding all the cards!:bsFlag:

I'll take the Proof House for a source, over the outhouse reading material, no matter how interesting the outhouse stuff is to read.

I really like some of the stuff that guys in the DoubleGun Journal have put to the test. There have been a couple different "Everybody Knows" issues that have been dealt with by means of cold hard cash, and some expensive instrumentation and experimentation in an actual scientific manner.

The other 'issue' that they pretty much put to rest was that the pressure would spike out of hand, using 2 3/4 shells in a 2 1/2 chamber. That article (articles, actually) is worth a read, too.

If your barrel has been stored in a garden shed and had the rust scrubbed off it every third year whether it needed it or not, it's likely not safe, no matter what it's made of. If it's in good nick, and it still is in pretty nice shape, it may be worth looking at closely for it's potential to be a shooter. Each on it's own merits, not subject to any blanket statements.
Loads should be as appropriate for the gun, too.

Cheers
Trev
 
I regularly shoot damascus guns, some of which have quite poor bores. As long as they show no signs of stress or weakening, there is no reason why a damascus barrel would be unsafe to shoot with correct BP loads. Sure they blew up lots at the turn of the century. It was more than likely due to smokeless shells being used in already weak damascus guns designed for BP, not due to the fact they were damascus.
 
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