Short AR: usefull ?

Having done extensive scientific testing (NOT!), I find the 'grin per round' factor is much higher with my 10.5" AR (9MM, but also .223), as well as my Swiss Arms CQB, over their longer barreled brethen...
I 'operate' all barrel length versions of both platforms, but on the 'one way ranges' most of us utilize, the 'shorties' are the ones that get packed up, carted, and used.
For most of us, the rationale for longer barrels...higher velocity, bullet fragmentation, etc., are moot points. Less weight, shorter barrels make for more pleasant handling characteristics, and, despite the higher index of 'noise, vibration, and harshness', the shorties win the popularity contest.
Yeah, if I had to depend on my AR/Swiss Arms for actual defense of 'life and country', I would likely opt for 14.5 or 16" variants, but I don't , and so will keep on using, and enjoying, my 'ballistically challenged' shorties.
 
Uberfiend said:
:agree:
exactly. I don't think there's any room for noise complaints at the range. Seriously, it should be the only place on the planet that noise shouldn't be an issue. As long as you use proper etiquette and let those around you know when you are going live....and maybe not firing your .50 BMG under the canopy. Use your manners, and wear your ears. Common courtesy and common sense.
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I wonder how fellow shooters would feel with my .308 under the canopy. It's braked, of course. :D
 
Better in tight confines and in vehicles. The tradeoff is lethality of the 5.56 round with less muzzle velocity. I have run LMT Mk18 overseas but I always complimented it with GL or a belt fed for distance.

Now I prefer an 11.5 or 12.5" for shorties. I would not go shorter than 10.5", and with a 10.5 I would stick with quality manufacturers like LMT. 7.5" you are punching .22 holes at muzzle.
 
I've only ever once gotten an instant splitting headache from a gun. A shorty AR, never found out the exact length, around 12" I guess. Standing 20 feet behind the guy, and every shot just pounded my poor skull. I've been close enough to a braked 50BMG, that stuff was blowing off of my table, that was more tolerable. I always wear ear protection, and every single other gun I've ever been around, sounds quite pleasant. That shorty AR was just obnoxious. I had to go for a walk while that guy was shooting. Thankfully it was a competition, and he was done shooting quickly, as he was deadly accurate with it (actually, he won the competition). If I were just out for a day at the range, and this fellow and his gun were there, I'd have to be on the other end of the range, at least. Guy beat a lot of good shooters, though. Very accurate.
 
BlackHills loads the 70gr Barnes, this is the Brown Tip Optimized 5.56mm (they are no longer painting the tips brown, at least on the test ammo I have).

Is specifically designed for the 10.3-11.5" guns that those customers use, its MOA ammo to at least 100yds.

Frag is reportedly 80m from the 10.3" Mk18
(I have not gel tested it)

For DA CQB missions, vehicle work and other complex terrain missions requiring a handy little gun, they are very effective.

However cardinal rule is run the longest barrel you can.

I think the 16" barrel is pretty much the optimum GP setup, as you can do CQB with it if necessary, and it can reach out effectively.

The biggest issue for short barrels is when you add a can to a 14.5" or 16" gun they get really awkward.
Can's can really be a force multiplier as it does not let the enemy see your muzzle flash and removes muzzle thump thus making locating the shooter next to impossible.
 
KevinB said:
BlackHills loads the 70gr Barnes, this is the Brown Tip Optimized 5.56mm (they are no longer painting the tips brown, at least on the test ammo I have).

Is specifically designed for the 10.3-11.5" guns that those customers use, its MOA ammo to at least 100yds.

Frag is reportedly 80m from the 10.3" Mk18
(I have not gel tested it)

For DA CQB missions, vehicle work and other complex terrain missions requiring a handy little gun, they are very effective.

However cardinal rule is run the longest barrel you can.

I think the 16" barrel is pretty much the optimum GP setup, as you can do CQB with it if necessary, and it can reach out effectively.

The biggest issue for short barrels is when you add a can to a 14.5" or 16" gun they get really awkward.
Can's can really be a force multiplier as it does not let the enemy see your muzzle flash and removes muzzle thump thus making locating the shooter next to impossible.
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I guess the lesson here is that they are a tool in the toolbox - not general purpose but specialized. Definitely a use for them, just don't go thinking they can do it all.

A moderately compact can on a MK18 makes for a package about the same size as a non-suppressed M4 - still lots handy enough for working in buildings and somewhat confined spaces.


blake
 
curtmg said:
I've only ever once gotten an instant splitting headache from a gun. A shorty AR, never found out the exact length, around 12" I guess. Standing 20 feet behind the guy, and every shot just pounded my poor skull. I've been close enough to a braked 50BMG, that stuff was blowing off of my table, that was more tolerable. I always wear ear protection, and every single other gun I've ever been around, sounds quite pleasant. That shorty AR was just obnoxious. I had to go for a walk while that guy was shooting. Thankfully it was a competition, and he was done shooting quickly, as he was deadly accurate with it (actually, he won the competition). If I were just out for a day at the range, and this fellow and his gun were there, I'd have to be on the other end of the range, at least. Guy beat a lot of good shooters, though. Very accurate.
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I agree. I own lots of guns that are fairly short and loud. M44, No.5 mk1, even my mauser in 30-06 is pretty loud. But nothing as annoying as being in the booth next to a shorty Ar. I didn't find it as loud firing it as I did being beside it. This is with foamys and muffs! It's not just the volume, it's the frequency. The "crump" of big bores doesn't hurt, it's the "crack" and "ringing" that accompany a shortie. I can listen to my Ar all day, and it doesn't bother me a whit, but it's a rifle: 20". People who say "man up" don't bother me, they won't be able to hear my response in a couple of years. Having said that, I love the look.:yingyang:
 
I think if you were gonna get a shorty you would be better with a 9mm Ar.... 55gr vs 147 gr ??? sure 223 is good for long range and has more power out of a 16 inch or 14.5 inch(which I think is still tooo small) but out of a shorty like a 10.5 or 7.5 I think you would be better with a 9mm for stopping power and plus there really only both good to 100 yards and 9mm cheaper!!!! so do the math Bigger bullet , Same distance , cheaper to fire, and can be used on pistol ranges... get a 9mm AR or do what I did F**K Ar's because there to un-reliable and get a cz 58 still has a short barrel - folding stock to make it even shorter- lighter than your Ar's and 1000000000 times more reliable, Much more knock down power for cqb and then get a Swiss arms for you designated marksmen rifle
 
Now for the short barrels, I think you will find that most of those police and military units are using rifles of >14.5".
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LE around here is using 10.5" AR's

The tradeoff is lethality of the 5.56 round with less muzzle velocity.
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This only stands true when using mil ball ammo. Something we civilians are not limited to. There are a number of very efficient varmint bullets out there that should (haven't personally tested this so a bit of WAG here) fragment at slower velocities. As well these bullets are available in lighter weights which will help increase velocity from a short barrel. A 40gr Vmax ought to have no problem creating a lethal wound out to a reasonabl distance. Nobody is gonna use a short shorty at seriously long range anyway so we only need to worry about typical CQB engagement distances.

I think if you were gonna get a shorty you would be better with a 9mm Ar.... 55gr vs 147 gr ??? sure 223 is good for long range and has more power out of a 16 inch or 14.5 inch(which I think is still tooo small) but out of a shorty like a 10.5 or 7.5 I think you would be better with a 9mm for stopping power
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I would think you ought to reconsider. You think a 9mm will offer good stopping power against someone wearing kevlar? .223 will punch right through all known soft body armour. 9mm won't even come close.
 
I`m loving my DC-10 upper!! Who cares about fragmenting when shooting paper and the plus is you get to anoy the fuddsters :)

The 10.5 is a very easy to controll length and still effective to 200 yards. Now a 7' barrel shooting 6.8 or 7.62x39 would give you nice stopping power in the AR platform :)

M855 VELOCITY DATA
__________________________

7.5" 2244 FPS ... 10.5" 2639 FPS
DIFFERENCE 395 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 132 FPS

10.5" 2639 FPS ... 14.5" 2861 FPS
DIFFERENCE 222 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 56 FPS

14.5" 2861 FPS ... 16" 2938 FPS
DIFFERENCE 77 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 51 FPS

16" 2938 FPS ... 18" 3046 FPS
DIFFERENCE 108 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 54 FPS

18" 3046 FPS ... 20" 3061 FPS
DIFFERENCE 15 FPS
DIFFERENCE/INCH 7.5 FPS
 
Who's punching body armour ??? And if you were in a war the opposing force would not be wearing level 2 armour they would be wearing armour that would stop 223 and 7.62 but on paper and on regular targets non armoured 9mm is better
 
I own a couple of ARs and the "terminal ballistics" argument is lost on me since I only shoot paper with them. So far, any round I've put through either of my ARs has managed to go through the rather thick paper plates I sometimes use. I think I hit a staple once! :eek:

Personally and shamefully, I rather like the "boom" factor of my 7.5" AR. I agree its kinda the same mentality as a Honda Civic with a coffee can exhaust. But unlike Civic rice rocket drivers... People don't laugh at you much when you hold a black gun.

There probably isn't any logical reason to buy a 7.5" barrelled AR chambered in .223 Rem. For me it's a spritual thing :D
 
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