Shotgun fit .... It needs to fit?

canvasback said:
Shooting to point of aim is not an issue of gun fit. In a double barrel gun it is an issue of whether the gun has been properly regulated and in single barrel guns, it is an issue of whether the barrel is straight and true.

Most people don't know their double guns are not properly regulated until they specifically pattern their gun to determine both barrels are shooting to point of aim. On single barrel guns a bent barrel will show up when set against a known straight edge. Improperly bored (it happens) is a little harder to determine.
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Thanks for pointing that out Canvasback .... but lets remove the "variable" of regulation .... lets say I am shopping for a single barrel, pump or semi auto .... and lets say what I found in that store is a quality gun ..... a B gun .... or some other reputable manufacturer .... the sight picture feels right .... positive cheek weld ..... stock length feels good .... etc.


My question still remains ....

How can I know that it will shoot to point of aim and before buying it? How can I know it will shoot to where I am pointing it ... and without pattern testing that gun?
 
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As I previously mentioned, you can find a gun that is close by shouldering it and seeing what the sight picture is but there’s no guarantee that you can shoot it well until you try it out… and I don’t mean a quick trip to the pattern board. I have a gun at home that appears to fit me well but I don’t shoot it as well as other guns that I have and I really don’t know what the difference is. Maybe it’s the weight, it’s a pretty light gun, maybe not, all I know is that even though all of my guns appear to fit me I still shoot some better than others.
 
0faustus0 said:
Thanks for pointing that out Canvasback .... but lets remove the "variable" of regulation .... lets say I am shopping for a single barrel, pump or semi auto .... and lets say what I found in that store is a quality gun ..... a B gun .... or some other reputable manufacturer .... the sight picture feels right .... positive cheek weld ..... stock length feels good .... etc.


My question still remains ....

How can I know that it will shoot to point of aim and before buying it? How can I know it will shoot to where I am pointing it ... and without pattern testing that gun?
Click to expand...

You can't. You buy it and take the risk. For me an adjustable comb is a must on a O/U. Semi's have different shims you can play with. Take it to the pattern board and see what's happening. Some guys like to shoot different, some covering the bird, some floating. Got to figure what works best for you.

Here is a pic of my patterning, my bead was just under the bird. 4 spacers vs 6 spacers vs 10 spacers. With 4 I couldn't hit well, with 6 I was smashing them, 10 spacers I was shooting over.

IMG_20220721_100209599_HDR by Gopes Ram, on Flickr
IMG_20220721_100217215_HDR by Gopes Ram, on Flickr
IMG_20210925_094145675 by Gopes Ram, on Flickr
 
0faustus0 said:
Thanks for pointing that out Canvasback .... but lets remove the "variable" of regulation .... lets say I am shopping for a single barrel, pump or semi auto .... and lets say what I found in that store is a quality gun ..... a B gun .... or some other reputable manufacturer .... the sight picture feels right .... positive cheek weld ..... stock length feels good .... etc.


My question still remains ....

How can I know that it will shoot to point of aim and before buying it? How can I know it will shoot to where I am pointing it ... and without pattern testing that gun?
Click to expand...



As mentioned, you likely won't be sure until you shoot it.
Feel in the store can get you close, but adjustable comb or stock shims can definitely help fine tune it as rmsg0040 pointed out.

Also, ask about the manufacturer's intended point of impact.
The Browning CX whatever lineup advertises 50/50, 60/40, 70/30 patterns for their corresponding models.
If you buy a trap gun that has a rib designed to place your shot high, you may have an issue with non rising targets.
 
Shooting it is the definitive test. But here is a little trick I learned that can be done with single barrel 12 ga. guns. With an unloaded gun and indoors, place a mini mag lite "AA size" flashlight in the muzzle. It should be a reasonably snug fit. Masking tape might be needed for a smooth snug fit in the bore. An open choke like IC or skeet, or no choke tube at all will help make it easier to fit the flashlight. Turn it on and focus the beam as tight as possible. Choose something across the room to aim at. Concentrate on that spot. Close your eyes, mount the gun and then open your eyes. The beam should be pointing at your "target" or very, very close. If it's significantly off, the gun will not "shoot where you look". Repeat several times to be sure. This is a very crude test, but better than a complete guess.
 
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0faustus0 said:
Thanks for pointing that out Canvasback .... but lets remove the "variable" of regulation .... lets say I am shopping for a single barrel, pump or semi auto .... and lets say what I found in that store is a quality gun ..... a B gun .... or some other reputable manufacturer .... the sight picture feels right .... positive cheek weld ..... stock length feels good .... etc.


My question still remains ....

How can I know that it will shoot to point of aim and before buying it? How can I know it will shoot to where I am pointing it ... and without pattern testing that gun?
Click to expand...


What Longwalker and Wade Kirk suggest is the only way I can think of, other than shooting it. And that’s kinda difficult to do in the store. I would go out on a limb and say the incidence of a mis-bored barrel are few and far between. In effect, not a problem. And poor barrel regulation in O/U of B gun quality and up is just about unheard of. The places to watch for it is with low quality SxS. New and used.

I buy lots of guns, especially SxS. I worry about condition, fit, balance etc. I never worry about will it shoot to point of aim. It’s such a low incidence problem, if I end up with one, and I otherwise like the gun, I’ll just have it fixed.

BTW, anytime someone is properly re-laying the ribs on a SxS they are effectively re-regulating it. Or at least doing 90% of the work involved.
 
pauls said:
this kid wins national championships and his face doesn't come close to touching the stock.
How important is gun fit to someone like him?
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With a neck that long, it would be difficult for him to mount a gun square on his shoulder and get his cheek down far enough to get close to that stock. I reckon this stock has quite a bit of DAC. What’s important is that the POA is where his eyes are looking
 
These work great…gives you a good idea if the gun points to where you look.

k0mGWSn.jpg
 
canvasback said:
What Longwalker and Wade Kirk suggest is the only way I can think of, other than shooting it. And that’s kinda difficult to do in the store. I would go out on a limb and say the incidence of a mis-bored barrel are few and far between. In effect, not a problem. And poor barrel regulation in O/U of B gun quality and up is just about unheard of. The places to watch for it is with low quality SxS. New and used.

I buy lots of guns, especially SxS. I worry about condition, fit, balance etc. I never worry about will it shoot to point of aim. It’s such a low incidence problem, if I end up with one, and I otherwise like the gun, I’ll just have it fixed.

BTW, anytime someone is properly re-laying the ribs on a SxS they are effectively re-regulating it. Or at least doing 90% of the work involved.
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Beretta had some o/u with poor barrel regulation.
 
0faustus0 said:
Thanks for pointing that out Canvasback .... but lets remove the "variable" of regulation .... lets say I am shopping for a single barrel, pump or semi auto .... and lets say what I found in that store is a quality gun ..... a B gun .... or some other reputable manufacturer .... the sight picture feels right .... positive cheek weld ..... stock length feels good .... etc.


My question still remains ....

How can I know that it will shoot to point of aim and before buying it? How can I know it will shoot to where I am pointing it ... and without pattern testing that gun?
Click to expand...

You can't until you try it. Warranty hassle or sell at a loss. On to a next shotgun. Tough luck.
 
Hunter7 said:
Yes I had a 12 gauge 687 Silver Pigeon where the bottom barrel point of impact was a foot lower than the upper barrrel.
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This falls into the category of things I didn't want to hear, but now I'll have to check it out, lol. Would it be serious with a cloud of bird shot at shotgun ranges? Well yes and no I guess.
 
Whatever method people choose, the fact is that many people give zero thought to shotgun fit. They buy a well respected brand, or they buy a cheap shotgun, or they buy a shotgun based on looks, and they have no clue if the bore points where they are looking. And if you do mention fit, they assume that you only mean length of pull. Running a skeet field, I still see many new shooters that still close one eye, and try to aim a shotgun using the beads as sights, so they simply don't understand how fit can be important.
 
Great answers on this post. If your eye is too high, or not lined up with the bore, then the shot is not going to go where you need it to go.
 
Big Bad said:
I wonder if such laser emitters actually reflect real world results with bird shot? Ever been tested?
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I think they will up to a point. Essentially your shining a light down 26 to 34 inches of pipe so if the laser isn't close to being aligned with the bore then it won't shine out the end.
A number of years ago I messed around with a homemade version of this laser. I took a pen laser and wrapped tape around it until it fit snug into a spent shotgun hull then inserted it into the chamber of my over and under. With the gun open I pointed it at a spot on the wall and rotated the hull in the chamber and the light didn't move too much off where I was pointing it so the laser was centered pretty good. I used it for gun mounting practice, focused on a spot on the wall then mounted the gun and watched to see if the laser beam went where I was looking. I think it had some value in gun fitting if used correctly.
 
Well, I got my hands on one of the above 12 G laser emitter shells and was glad to find the barrels on my Beretta 687 EELL show to be perfectly aligned within the limits of that device, which is a good as double barrels are going to get, I think. I was a bit nervous because I got the gun for a fantastically good price, new for half the list price in fact, and it struck me that misaligned barrels might be the hidden defect. I guess another way to settle the issue would be to fire slugs out of each barrel, but I have no intention of doing that. It will be interesting to likewise test my other double barrels, not that I have any concern about them.
 
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