Should Crossbows be Allowed in Archery Only Season?

[HunterDave]

I did try to ask a few questions about the inclusion of this to the hunter survey, particularly who and how this is being initiated, why it is being collected and the proposed action items as a result of the data collection..

This is what I received as a response:





On Dec 22, 2010, Alberta Game Harvest Survey <ahsurvey@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

Hi,

It is true that the crossbow issue is quite controversial in some areas of the province.

The question was added to this year's survey to measure the level of the controversy.

I hope this explains why this question appeared in the survey.

Thanks
Web Survey Administration Team
Game Harvest Survey
ahsurvey@ca.ibm.com

I am sorry, this didn't answer a thing, and actually provides support to Morph's concerns about the process and issue. I wonder why they have not include other things as questions "to measure the level of controversy"

Perhaps the Alberta Bowhunter Association (ABA) could cast a little more light on the subject for you? They started polling members as early as April this year.

 

[Morpheus32]

Morpheus32 - Yes, there is one other poll that I posted on an Alberta Outdoorsman's forum specifically presented to hunters that are mostly from Alberta. My opinion on whether or not I personally think that crossbows should be included is not the issue here and I chose not to discuss it on this thread or the other thread with the similar poll on it. I am intent on remaining unbiased on both threads so that no one can accuse me of trying to sway anyone's vote one way or another.

There is a separate thread without a poll on the other site that is dedicated to discussing everything related to this topic. Since you already know where to find it, I would be happy to engage in a debate on the subject over there. If you have already read my posts on the other thread then you are well aware of my position on this topic.

If you feel that the question in this poll is poorly worded or is biased in any way, shape or form then PLEASE post your reasons. Otherwise, then perhaps the results are not supporting your own position and your statements are based solely on your own emotion.

Unbiased? Dave, please review your posts. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to gleen your position on the issue. How about your bashing of SRD and the ABA. Unbiased? I don't think so. Your position has been apparent throughout.

You want to debate...lets see debate means you have to have a position in the argument....which clearly you do. So lets stop pretending your unbiased and doing this as a community service. You want crossbows in the archery season so YOU can use them and on top of it, you are bitter with SRD because you were denied a disabled permit. It sure sounds like you have a pretty strong position on the issue.

Your poll here is garbage and a waste of time. What value do you seek from it? At the end of the day, this is an Alberta issue and national reflection on your complex poll means nothing. So again, your poll has no value to the discussion and I stress that it is all in how you word it. How about you start a poll on Alberta Outdoormans pushing for an increased in the harvest allocation for the archery season from the general season to support the inclusion of crossbows?

My concern remains, equipment is immaterial to the issue. The issue is how is SRD going to manage this potential change. Having most species less whitetail on draw during the bow season will change the archery season. SRD has made that pretty clear that there might be changes. You don't present that information unless you have worked through a plan here. Before I say yes or no to crossbows, I want to know what the impact is before the hunting seasons or available species change. I don't believe I have stated my opinion on crossbows anywhere. I strong believe that changes have to be managed rather than a cascade effect which changes hunting for a large number of Albertans. I am not willing to accept your opinion as stated in the thread on the other website that the impact will be low. Sorry, that is just your opinion. Mine is we potential might change the nature of the archery season and impact a great deal of people. Rifle only hunters might not like the idea of "sharing" harvest with the archery season if it comes down to it.

Polls can be manipulated. Kind of like a poll say "Do you support gun control if it keeps firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them." Then using that to profess support for gun control and banning firearms...since it will keep firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them.

So I have issues with this poll of yours and SRDs poll. Ask a proper question and understand what you are getting in response. I don't like changing regulations and the very nature of hunting in the province in response to a poorly thought out question.

 

[Moon]

Perhaps the Alberta Bowhunter Association (ABA) could cast a little more light on the subject for you? They started polling members as early as April this year.

And this was in response to the annual SRD meeting in February of 2010 where those in attendance learned that crossbows were being considered for inclusion into archery season. The SRD biologist also stated, unequivocally, that at the very least the general antlered mule deer and moose tags that had been available in archery season would be put on a draw IMMEDIATELY if crossbows were included.

I’m not sure what you are getting at with your remarks about the Alberta Bowhunter’s Association but I’m listening if you would care to elaborate. There is a lot to learn on the subject for sure.

 

[HunterDave]

And this was in response to the annual SRD meeting in February of 2010 where those in attendance learned that crossbows were being considered for inclusion into archery season. The SRD biologist also stated, unequivocally, that at the very least the general antlered mule deer and moose tags that had been available in archery season would be put on a draw IMMEDIATELY if crossbows were included.

I’m not sure what you are getting at with your remarks about the Alberta Bowhunter’s Association but I’m listening if you would care to elaborate. There is a lot to learn on the subject for sure.

I'm not trying to get at anything. The poster wasn't happy with the answers that he was getting from SRD so I told him that he might be able to get more info from ABA and why I thought that. SRD and ABA are the only two organizations that I conclusively know of that are/did conduct surveys about the use of crossbows.

 

[Moon]

I'm not trying to get at anything. The poster wasn't happy with the answers that he was getting from SRD so I told him that he might be able to get more info from ABA and why I thought that. SRD and ABA are the only two organizations that I conclusively know of that are/did conduct surveys about the use of crossbows.

Why in the world would you try and get info on a current SRD survey from the ABA? You are kidding me right?

If the info that Norskie posted is accurrate, he did NOT get an answer to his questions. That is what he is unhappy about.

That said, it seems pretty obvious to me (and others) that you are indeed trying to get at something and I would be interested as to what your beef or claim about the ABA really is. I'm a member but if they are up to no good I would re-evaluate my support.

 

[HunterDave]

Why in the world would you try and get info on a current SRD survey from the ABA? You are kidding me right?

If the info that Norskie posted is accurrate, he did NOT get an answer to his questions. That is what he is unhappy about.

That said, it seems pretty obvious to me (and others) that you are indeed trying to get at something and I would be interested as to what your beef or claim about the ABA really is. I'm a member but if they are up to no good I would re-evaluate my support.

You are reading too much into it. If there are two entities that are familiar with the issue that I know of and one cannot provide you with the answers that you are looking for then I will tell you who the other entity is. A little paranoia perhaps Moon?

 

[Moon]

You are reading too much into it. If there are two entities that are familiar with the issue that I know of and one cannot provide you with the answers that you are looking for then I will tell you who the other entity is. A little paranoia perhaps Moon?

Maybe you are posting too much into it .

I spoke to an executive member of the ABA and they had no idea that SRD was conducting a survey. This was brought up in a meeting on proposed regulations changes. By all reports, it was driven by an executive member of the AFGA (of which I am also a member). I am hoping the AFGA was responding to requests from membership in prior conferences to establish a crossbow season.

I'm trying to help you out here a bit Dave as you don't seem to understand the history, the players or the potential consequences of the issue... seriously. As I stated before, there is a lot to learn on the subject.

 

[HunterDave]

QUOTE=Morpheus32;5184210]Unbiased? Dave, please review your posts. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to gleen your position on the issue. How about your bashing of SRD and the ABA. Unbiased? I don't think so. Your position has been apparent throughout.

You want to debate...lets see debate means you have to have a position in the argument....which clearly you do. So lets stop pretending your unbiased and doing this as a community service. You want crossbows in the archery season so YOU can use them and on top of it, you are bitter with SRD because you were denied a disabled permit. It sure sounds like you have a pretty strong position on the issue.

Your poll here is garbage and a waste of time. What value do you seek from it? At the end of the day, this is an Alberta issue and national reflection on your complex poll means nothing. So again, your poll has no value to the discussion and I stress that it is all in how you word it. How about you start a poll on Alberta Outdoormans pushing for an increased in the harvest allocation for the archery season from the general season to support the inclusion of crossbows?

My concern remains, equipment is immaterial to the issue. The issue is how is SRD going to manage this potential change. Having most species less whitetail on draw during the bow season will change the archery season. SRD has made that pretty clear that there might be changes. You don't present that information unless you have worked through a plan here. Before I say yes or no to crossbows, I want to know what the impact is before the hunting seasons or available species change. I don't believe I have stated my opinion on crossbows anywhere. I strong believe that changes have to be managed rather than a cascade effect which changes hunting for a large number of Albertans. I am not willing to accept your opinion as stated in the thread on the other website that the impact will be low. Sorry, that is just your opinion. Mine is we potential might change the nature of the archery season and impact a great deal of people. Rifle only hunters might not like the idea of "sharing" harvest with the archery season if it comes down to it.

Polls can be manipulated. Kind of like a poll say "Do you support gun control if it keeps firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them." Then using that to profess support for gun control and banning firearms...since it will keep firearms out of the hands of people who should not have them.

So I have issues with this poll of yours and SRDs poll. Ask a proper question and understand what you are getting in response. I don't like changing regulations and the very nature of hunting in the province in response to a poorly thought out question.[/QUOTE]

_______________________________________________________

I have reviewed all of my posts and I only see one instance of where I could have worded my reply a little better to someone that called me an F'tard. However, the only way that anyone could consider it biased on one side or the other is knowing what my position is on the issue is. Since I have tried to remain neutral on this thread, you would have had to find that info elsewhere.

My post that you perceive as bashing the SDR and ABA was a sarcastic remark in reply to your comment about you planning for a living and conducting a poll is not how to get input on a proposed change. I don't know about anyone else but, since both SRD and ABA are doing exactly that, to me that sounds a little arrogant and you feel that you are smarter than everyone else. So how do you think organizations should go about getting public input?

Perhaps you should review all of my posts as well. I have already stated twice that I am currently in possession of a permit to hunt with a crossbow due to a disability.

Yes I have a position on this issue however as I stated in an earlier thread I chose not to discuss it on this thread.

You are entitled to your opinion that this poll is garbage and a waste of time however there are 236 people that voted on it that probably don't share your opinion. Otherwise, why would they waste their time voting on it? I for one, find it very interesting.

If you have issues with the way that this poll and the SRD's poll was worded how would you have worded it? In hindsight, I should have cut and pasted the exact question as asked on the SRD poll to this one.

 

[HunterDave]

Maybe you are posting too much into it .

I spoke to an executive member of the ABA and they had no idea that SRD was conducting a survey. This was brought up in a meeting on proposed regulations changes. By all reports, it was driven by an executive member of the AFGA (of which I am also a member). I am hoping the AFGA was responding to requests from membership in prior conferences to establish a crossbow season.

I'm trying to help you out here a bit Dave as you don't seem to understand the history, the players or the potential consequences of the issue... seriously. As I stated before, there is a lot to learn on the subject.

I think that maybe the ABA executive member is a little out of touch or you were talking to him back in February. You can find the info about their & the SDR survey in their April (If I'm not mistaken) newsletter. If you can't, I'll copy and post the link for you to help you out.

Perhaps I don't have any knowledge whatsoever on this topic. There is no way of knowing for sure as long as I try to stay as neutral as possible. I don't need to know very much about the subject though, to merely start a thread with a poll on it asking a question. I encourage debate on the thread however I will not participate in the discussion.

 

[Morpheus32]

Dave,

Your right...this is a great scientific poll filled with useful information. How about you call up SRD and give them the results. I am sure they will find it useful and informative.

Of course you find all this interesting....you want to hunt with a crossbow and based on your comments on the other board, you don't really think anything is going to happen except everyone gets to hunt with a crossbow in the archery season.

The ABA was polling its membership on an issue. Nothing dark here...they don't have a responsibility to poll the public on an archery issue...they are a bowhunting organization. Your smirk comments suggests, as commented on by Moon that you have some issue with the ABA. Do tell.

As mentioned by Moon, I don't think you have been following how this all came to be in the first place nor to you understand how the harvest/allocations for species work in the province. Maybe you do but anyone who does seems to recognize that this is a pure numbers issue. Either you shorten/restrict the archery season, or you take a percentage of the harvest from the general season to expand the greater participation in the archery season. Something has to give and right now, we don't know what it is. Your previous posts on the other board confirm you don't think anything will happen despite comments on both sides that SRD has made it perfectly clear that mule deer and moose will in all likelihood go to draw. It becomes a bit of a game changer for people who might wake up to find out that they should have applied for a draw this year....

This is clearly an emotional issue for you. From my perspective, again and again, I bring up the point about unintended consequences. We have no idea what the impact of the inclusion of crossbows will have...we just know that something is going to give and as noted by SRD, we could have a shorter season, species on draws and in the end, less opportunity. With the annual increase in bowhunters in the province, the success rate is closing in on 15%...so it does not take much to change everything. As I said, ask a rifle only hunter if they are prepared to give up a percentage of the harvest to the archery season to support the inclusion of crossbows. Again, likely get a lot more people excited. Apparently it is OK if we restrict opportunity in the archery season to include crossbows out of hand without any idea of the impact. I for one am not prepared to support the inclusion of crossbows until I have more details on the impact.

 

[HunterDave]

Dave, Of course you find all this interesting....you want to hunt with a crossbow

How many times does it have to be stated that I already hunt with a crossbow before it finally sinks in? Whether or not the proposal to include crossbows in Archery Only season is accepted or reject will effect me in NO way as to whether or not I can use my crossbow to hunt! Sigh............

 

[HunterDave]

Maybe you are posting too much into it .

I spoke to an executive member of the ABA and they had no idea that SRD was conducting a survey. This was brought up in a meeting on proposed regulations changes. By all reports, it was driven by an executive member of the AFGA (of which I am also a member). I am hoping the AFGA was responding to requests from membership in prior conferences to establish a crossbow season.

I'm trying to help you out here a bit Dave as you don't seem to understand the history, the players or the potential consequences of the issue... seriously. As I stated before, there is a lot to learn on the subject.

I'm not sure which executive member of ABA you were talking to but here's a link to help you out...............

http://www.bowzone.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=11627

 

[Moon]

I think that maybe the ABA executive member is a little out of touch or you were talking to him back in February. You can find the info about their & the SDR survey in their April (If I'm not mistaken) newsletter. If you can't, I'll copy and post the link for you to help you out.

Perhaps I don't have any knowledge whatsoever on this topic. There is no way of knowing for sure as long as I try to stay as neutral as possible. I don't need to know very much about the subject though, to merely start a thread with a poll on it asking a question. I encourage debate on the thread however I will not participate in the discussion.

If you could post the info you have on both surveys it would be greatly appreciated.

Just to clarify, the executive member of the ABA had no idea that SRD was conducting this recent crossbow survey. I spoke to him about this two or three weeks ago. I never spoke to anyone from the ABA about this survey simply because I never new it was being hatched until it was brought up at the proposed regulation changes meeting. I was told, and I believe from what was shown to me, that it never made the hard-copy agenda on proposed regulation changes.

My discussions and information that you refer to in February were with an ASRD biologist at a public meeting. He didn't say that some animals MAY go to draw as the AlbertaRelm survery suggests, he stated that some animals WILL go to draw the moment that crossbows are allowed into archery season.

Ironically, I can see persons of diability, who are currently enjoying the use of crossbows in the archery season, being the biggest losers in this scenario but that might be a whole different topic.

I am not suggesting that you have no information on this topic, but I get the feeling your anger and frustration may be misdirected. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

[HunterDave]

Dave,The ABA was polling its membership on an issue. Nothing dark here...they don't have a responsibility to poll the public on an archery issue...they are a bowhunting organization. Your smirk comments suggests, as commented on by Moon that you have some issue with the ABA. Do tell.

I know that they are polling their membership and I don't care if there's anything dark or not. I was merely directing a poster to where he might get a better answer to the one that he received from the SRD. Whatever perception you have of that is entirely up to you but I doubt that too many other people saw my comment that way. There's no reason for your paranoia........................or is there? (I am just joking about that so there's no reason to get even more paranoid).

If you are going to post comments like, "I plan for a living. This is not how you get input on a proposed change.", referring to polls, you can expect someone to comment on your arrogance. If you think that you are smarter than everyone at ABA and SRD, because both organizations are using polls to gather input, so be it.

 

[Moon]

I'm not sure which executive member of ABA you were talking to but here's a link to help you out...............

http://www.bowzone.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=11627

Right.

The ABA survey was in response to the comments at the meetings in February.

I believe, but I don't know for a fact, that the results of the ABA survey were forwarded to ASRD.

To the best of my information, there was no more formal discussion about the issue between the stakeholder groups.

Agendas were sent out regarding proposed regulation changes. The earlier discussed issues of crossbows and muzzle loaders were noticeably absent from the agenda and were believed to be discarded or postponed issues.

The issue of crossbows was apparently brought up by an executive member of AFGA at the regulations meeting. Evidently, SRD included the crossbow question on its Annual Harvest Survey.

If the answer to Norskie’s question is truthful, the reason this was done was to determine the level of controversy?

SAY WHAT!!!

 

[HunterDave]

If you could post the info you have on both surveys it would be greatly appreciated.

Just to clarify, the executive member of the ABA had no idea that SRD was conducting this recent crossbow survey. I spoke to him about this two or three weeks ago. I never spoke to anyone from the ABA about this survey simply because I never new it was being hatched until it was brought up at the proposed regulation changes meeting. I was told, and I believe from what was shown to me, that it never made the hard-copy agenda on proposed regulation changes.

My discussions and information that you refer to in February were with an ASRD biologist at a public meeting. He didn't say that some animals MAY go to draw as the AlbertaRelm survery suggests, he stated that some animals WILL go to draw the moment that crossbows are allowed into archery season.

Ironically, I can see persons of diability, who are currently enjoying the use of crossbows in the archery season, being the biggest losers in this scenario but that might be a whole different topic.

I am not suggesting that you have no information on this topic, but I get the feeling your anger and frustration may be misdirected. Perhaps I am wrong.

I can't find the updated results for the ABA poll although they are supposed to be posted somewhere. Perhaps you would have better luck finding them. I too would like to see them. The SRD poll is still ongoing and as far as I know they are not yet available.

If it is fact then why wouldn't the SRD poll state that draws WILL happen instead of MAY happen?Perhaps SRD is trying to misinform people or there are other biologists that have differing opinions.

Yeah, you're wrong. Having to present the same facts over and over again before it finally sinks in is a little frustrating (ie me currently using a crossbow to hunt with) and the desire by some to find a conspiracy or hidden agenda behind the reason for posting the poll but other than that there is absolutely NO anger or frustration on my part. I simply started this thread/poll and I am dedicated to NOT voice my opinions, concerns or anything else related to this topic. I have no control over how anyone perceives my posts and if they keep their emotions in check then they will see them for what they are. Honest, I'm not yelling my words out.

 

[HunterDave]

If the answer to Norskie’s question is truthful, the reason this was done was to determine the level of controversy?

SAY WHAT!!!

I agree, that's exactly what I think they are trying to determine.

On that note I wish you a good day as I have a few other things to do. Cheers!

 

[Moon]

If it is fact then why wouldn't the SRD poll state that draws WILL happen instead of MAY happen?Perhaps SRD is trying to misinform people or there are other biologists that have differing opinions.

Yeah, you're wrong. Having to present the same facts over and over again before it finally sinks in is a little frustrating (ie me currently using a crossbow to hunt with) and the desire by some to find a conspiracy or hidden agenda behind the reason for posting the poll but other than that there is absolutely NO anger or frustration on my part.

BING BING BING - WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER!!!!

Facts - That is what this issue is all about and that is why it is so contentious.

Some of "my facts" are completely different than "your facts" so who is right?

We hunt in Alberta, but we are looking to Ohio and other States for facts. There are a lot of differences not being considered, does this make it right?

How can we make the right choices if we don't have the facts?

I also remember for a fact Flaherty telling us he wouldn't tax Income Trusts - that one cost me a bundle!

 

[Morpheus32]

Dave,

There is no hidden agenda...just your agenda. Lets make sure we have that clear here.

If you want to remain impartial and not state your opinion on the issue....maybe, just maybe you should stop posting and allow some discussion. So far, it seems you are rather opinionated on this issue.

My "arrogance" for wanting a plan for the inclusion rather than just doing it and dealing with the unintended consequences? How about your "arrogance" that you constantly have to repeat yourself over and over again so the rest of us will accept you "facts". I for one have some problems with your thesis that nothing will really change except everyone will be able to use crossbows. Things are going to change but it is apparent to me that you don't really care about the consequences for the inclusion...just so long as you get to hunt with a crossbow. Forgive me for looking at it in a bit of a bigger picture perspective. Right now the picture that is painted by SRD suggests some big changes for all hunters in the archery season with potentially rifle only hunters also loosing opportunity. I think if you brought up a motion at the AFGA next AGM and suggested that a % of the harvest be transfered to the archery season to support the increase in numbers (occurring annually and crossbow hunters), you would find some significant resistance.

In any case, there is a lot more discussion going to take place at the stakeholder level if this is to progress. I think "just because" is not going to fly as a reason for the inclusion. More rationalization will have to take place and a great deal more facts.

I guess I am getting a little tired of repeating myself over and over to you that the question is not the inclusion of the crossbow, the question is the impact of the inclusion.

 

[sheephunter]

I personally think the whole loss of opportunity thing is the biggest red herring in this debate and it has totally taken the focus away from the real question. The only question should be whether crossbows qualify as archery gear or not. If they do then their users should have equal access in the archery season. If they don't, then they should remain as is. To keep a user out because it affects my opportunity is greedy. To keep a user out because their choice of weapon does not belong in a weapon specific season...that makes sense.