Should Crossbows be Allowed in Archery Only Season?

[sheephunter]

Section 109 of the Criminal Code of Canada
________________________________________

Mandatory prohibition order

109. (1) Where a person is convicted, or discharged under section 730, of
(a) an indictable offence in the commission of which violence against a person was used, threatened or attempted and for which the person may be sentenced to imprisonment for ten years or more,
(b) an offence under subsection 85(1) (using firearm in commission of offence), subsection 85(2) (using imitation firearm in commission of offence), 95(1) (possession of prohibited or restricted firearm with ammunition), 99(1) (weapons trafficking), 100(1) (possession for purpose of weapons trafficking), 102(1) (making automatic firearm), 103(1) (importing or exporting knowing it is unauthorized) or section 264 (criminal harassment),
(c) an offence relating to the contravention of subsection 5(3) or (4), 6(3) or 7(2) of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, or
(d) an offence that involves, or the subject-matter of which is, a firearm, a cross-bow, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition, any prohibited ammunition or an explosive substance and, at the time of the offence, the person was prohibited by any order made under this Act or any other Act of Parliament from possessing any such thing,
the court that sentences the person or directs that the person be discharged, as the case may be, shall, in addition to any other punishment that may be imposed for that offence or any other condition prescribed in the order of discharge, make an order prohibiting the person from possessing any firearm, cross-bow, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device, ammunition, prohibited ammunition and explosive substance during the period specified in the order as determined in accordance with subsection (2) or (3), as the case may be.
__________________________________________

My conversations with both Alberta Fish & Wildlife and Law Enforcement have revealed that a hunter that has a Mandatory Prohibition Order would NOT be allowed to hunt in an archery season with a crossbow (unless given a specific judicial exemption and if crossbows were legal in that season) but would still be allowed to hunt with a compound bow, a recurve or a long bow providing he or she held a valid Provincial hunting license.

Why is there a distinction made?

Kind of sounds like the same reasoning the feds have for restricting AR15s but not Mini 14s....lol

 

[guido]

Something that may sway the vote a bit is a thread about wounded deer
Pretty sure this is a result of a crossbow.
not saying all hunters would have this happen, but maybe the "new opportunity" ones.

 

[HunterDave]

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Gatehouse]

Section 109 of the Criminal Code of Canada
________________________________________

Mandatory prohibition order

109. (1) Where a person is convicted, or discharged under section 730, of
(a) an indictable offence in the commission of which violence against a person was used, threatened or attempted and for which the person may be sentenced to imprisonment for ten years or more,
(b) an offence under subsection 85(1) (using firearm in commission of offence), subsection 85(2) (using imitation firearm in commission of offence), 95(1) (possession of prohibited or restricted firearm with ammunition), 99(1) (weapons trafficking), 100(1) (possession for purpose of weapons trafficking), 102(1) (making automatic firearm), 103(1) (importing or exporting knowing it is unauthorized) or section 264 (criminal harassment),
(c) an offence relating to the contravention of subsection 5(3) or (4), 6(3) or 7(2) of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, or
(d) an offence that involves, or the subject-matter of which is, a firearm, a cross-bow, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition, any prohibited ammunition or an explosive substance and, at the time of the offence, the person was prohibited by any order made under this Act or any other Act of Parliament from possessing any such thing,
the court that sentences the person or directs that the person be discharged, as the case may be, shall, in addition to any other punishment that may be imposed for that offence or any other condition prescribed in the order of discharge, make an order prohibiting the person from possessing any firearm, cross-bow, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device, ammunition, prohibited ammunition and explosive substance during the period specified in the order as determined in accordance with subsection (2) or (3), as the case may be.
__________________________________________

My conversations with both Alberta Fish & Wildlife and Law Enforcement have revealed that a hunter that has a Mandatory Prohibition Order would NOT be allowed to hunt in an archery season with a crossbow (unless given a specific judicial exemption and if crossbows were legal in that season) but would still be allowed to hunt with a compound bow, a recurve or a long bow providing he or she held a valid Provincial hunting license.

Why is there a distinction made?

The distinction is made due to Hollywood. The writers of lots of legislation really don't know what the eff they are talking about, but one of them watched a movie that had some assassin using a crossbow so they decided that a crossbow is some sort of evil Ninja device.

But it's pretty irrelevant to the discussion of allowing crossbows in a lawful archery season. Unless you have a weapons prohibition, that is.

 

[HunterDave]

And this was in response to the annual SRD meeting in February of 2010 where those in attendance learned that crossbows were being considered for inclusion into archery season. The SRD biologist also stated, unequivocally, that at the very least the general antlered mule deer and moose tags that had been available in archery season would be put on a draw IMMEDIATELY if crossbows were included.

I’m not sure what you are getting at with your remarks about the Alberta Bowhunter’s Association but I’m listening if you would care to elaborate. There is a lot to learn on the subject for sure.

Should what was said by this biologist who was invited to speak at an ABA hosted event be taken as fact or are there other biologists out there that would disagree with his opinion and have a completely different perspective? What is the ABA position on including crossbows in archery season?

 

[Morpheus32]

Should what was said by this biologist who was invited to speak at an ABA hosted event be taken as fact or are there other biologists out there that would disagree with his opinion and have a completely different perspective? What is the ABA position on including crossbows in archery season?

Dave,

I see your back at it again. It would appear that the points made by the biologist and the question in the SRD certainly have the same linkage...that is the likelihood that a number of species will go on draw in the archery season. I know you don't agree with that but it certainly seems that SRD has that opinion. Why else would they put that comment in the SRD questionaire?

 

[Dogleg]

I had to quit bowhunting after I wrecked my shoulder. A crossbow would put me back in the game. Since our tags are available to everyone who wants one, and are good in any season it shouldn't change hunter sucess one bit.

 

[Moon]

Should what was said by this biologist who was invited to speak at an ABA hosted event be taken as fact or are there other biologists out there that would disagree with his opinion and have a completely different perspective? What is the ABA position on including crossbows in archery season?

Not sure where you are getting your information from as I have never been to an ABA hosted event.

The meeting I attended was held in Lethbridge in February of 2010 at the Public Library. It is an annual affair sanctioned by SRD and Fish & Wildlife and deals with current issues and proposals as well as an overview of our fish and wildlife resources, management and conservation. Anyone is welcome to attend and it is very well advertised. I would guess that there were well over 100 individuals in attendance. I think they conduct similar meetings across Alberta. The Fish & Wildlife biologist that spoke was Kim Morton.

These are the facts.

ETA - To be clear, my invitation came through a local Fish & Game Association and not the ABA or any affiliated organization.

 

[HunterDave]

I should have read your post better as I was under the impression that you had attended an ABA information session. My apologies.

The one thing that I have a hard time understanding is, if a SRD biologist states publicly that the inclusion of crossbows into archery only season WILL result in draws, then how can SRD use the statement that it MAY result in draws?

Is it because SRD biologists are divided on the issue?

Without knowing how many extra hunters it would add to archery only season, can anyone's statement, "unequivocally, that at the very least the general antlered mule deer and moose tags that had been available in archery season would be put on a draw IMMEDIATELY if crossbows were included." be considered as fact? Isn't there information missing in order to determine that conclusively?

 

[Moon]

I should have read your post better as I was under the impression that you had attended an ABA information session. My apologies.

The one thing that I have a hard time understanding is, if a SRD biologist states publicly that the inclusion of crossbows into archery only season WILL result in draws, then how can SRD use the statement that it MAY result in draws?

Is it because SRD biologists are divided on the issue?

Without knowing how many extra hunters it would add to archery only season, can anyone's statement, "unequivocally, that at the very least the general antlered mule deer and moose tags that had been available in archery season would be put on a draw IMMEDIATELY if crossbows were included." be considered as fact? Isn't there information missing in order to determine that conclusively?

Obviously, I can't answer that question. I can only tell you what was said at that particular meeting and in subsequent converstations. I found my notes and the meeting was held on February 25th, 2010.

The Powerpoint presentation given at the meeting included the question of crossbows in archery season and read that their inclusion MAY result in draws for some of the species currently allowed as general tags in that season.

Kim Morton, the Fish & Wildlife biologist, when reading this from the Powerpoint presentation stated that the inclusion of crossbows WILL result in draws for antlered mule deer and moose IMMEDIATELY. There are additional species that are available as a general tag (dependent upon the zone) in archery season that MAY be placed on a draw given harvest numbers if crossbows are allowed in archery season.

The meeting included an overview of the health of our wildlife, antelope strategies and of course had a lengthy presentation on RAMP given by Grant Chapman. I think there was also some questions and answers in regard to the inclusion of muzzleloaders in archery season or the possibility of a dedicated muzzleloader season. I think this was brought up as a question rather than an agenda item.

 

[HunterDave]

If the SRD biologist is saying including crossbows WILL IMMEDIATELY result in draws for Antlered Mule Deer and Moose and the SRD survey says that it MAY result in draws for some species, then one explanation for the wording the way that it is might be that SRD is considering only allowing crossbows to hunt certain species during archery only season and not included are Antlered Mule Deer and Moose.

I wonder if that would change anyone's opinion about allowing crossbows into archery only season?

 

[Moon]

The loss of opportunity becomes an important issue because the question of crossbows in archery season is subject to consideration and input.

As currently defined in the 2010 Alberta Regulations:

Persons hunting big game must use an authorized bow and an authorized arrow. An authorized bow is one that is held, drawn and released by muscular power and has a draw weight of not less than 18 kg (40 lb.). This is the number of kilograms (pounds) required to draw an arrow of 71 cm (28 in.) to its head. An authorized arrow is one that is not less than 61 cm (24 in.) in length that has a tip that bears a head that is not intentionally designed to resist being withdrawn after it has penetrated an object. Furthermore, it must either have a solid, sharp cutting head of at least 7/8 inch in width, or a head that, when the arrow impacts, opens to present sharp cutting edges at least 7/8 inch in width.

It is this very definition that currently disallows crossbows in an archery season in Alberta. (Bold is my emphasis)

As I have previously researched, there appears to be precedent in Federal legislation that also distinguishes between crossbows and “standard” archery tackle (see CCofC S.109). Further, the governing body that records archery records also does not recognize crossbows as archery tackle.

It seems pretty clear that current laws, regulations and records suggest that crossbows do NOT belong in the Alberta archery season.

Thankfully, not all laws or legislation are absolute or ad infinitum and we have an opportunity to debate, discuss, terminate or modify items to more accurately reflect current needs or requirements.

Crossbows are currently allowed for hunting in Alberta but are excluded from the archery season.

Any qualified person able to draw 40 lbs. under the Alberta Hunting Regulation is able to hunt the archery season.

And, individuals who qualify for special permits are also allowed to legally use crossbows to hunt the Alberta archery season.

There are some individuals who would like to see crossbows included in the archery season and have petitioned SRD for those changes. This will obviously require a new or amended definition for what type of weapons may be used to hunt this season.

Further, SRD has also said that general tags that were available in the archery season may/will go to a draw.

Individuals that wish to hunt with crossbows in Alberta currently have an opportunity to do so. They are asking SRD to also include them in the current archery season which would require a change in the Alberta Hunting Regulations. Further, their inclusion will come at a cost to the existing archery season and hunters in the number of tags allowed and new draws.

To me the insinuation that those enjoying the current archery season are greedy because they do not want to share it with crossbow hunters lacks both intelligence and understanding of the issue.

The evolution of technology is something that really needs to be considered (preferably sooner than later) in the discussion as well:

h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5nVSfv0Rlg

These new PSE tactical crossbows look remarkable both in range and in accuracy and I know that I will be looking at purchasing one in the very near future. I understand that Bowtech either has or will have their own offering soon as well .

 

[HunterDave]

Okay Moon, now that you got that out of your system, what kind of opposition do you think there would be to introducing crossbows into archery only season if there was no risk of species going to draw?

Yes, the PSE crossbows are impressive if you can afford one.

 

[Freyr_255]

Personally I shoot stick and have played with compounds and crossbows as well.

Way I see it is that crossbows have more limitations than compounds and are therefore actually harder to hunt with. This includes things like slower reload times, error from string placement and trigger pull, shorter range etc. Don't see why they were never allowed in the first place as they follow all the same archery principles as other bows.

 

[skeetkiller]

personally i say no. its not the same you dont draw it back or hold the energy at full draw. but the thought of shotgun or muzzle loaders being allowed seems counter productive. its called bow season. if we need a muzzle loader/shotgun season make one, but leave the bow hunters some private time in the woods. it gets hectic out there some times. jmo

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Personally I shoot stick and have played with compounds and crossbows as well.

Way I see it is that crossbows have more limitations than compounds and are therefore actually harder to hunt with. This includes things like slower reload times, error from string placement and trigger pull, shorter range etc. Don't see why they were never allowed in the first place as they follow all the same archery principles as other bows.

slower reload times, yes
error from string placement.... yes, but, sticks suffer from the same error, plus, where you anchor the draw.
Trigger pull, depends on model, and your release can have the same issues.
Range, true, but are generally more accurate for the inexperienced within that range.
You forgot that you don't need to practice for weeks ahead of bow season to get up to speed with a crossbow. (some folks need more stick bow time, some less)
Practice like you were using a firearm is all you need with a crossbow.
So really, we're back to slower reload times, and shorter range, something the hunter can deal with, in his decision on what to start with.

Realistically, how many times with even a stick bow do you get a second shot. Does happen, I've done it with a crossbow. Depends on how stupid your target is, and on how well concealed you are (something that's easier when you don't have to draw for that first shot).

 

[Moon]

Alberta Sustainable Resources Department has today released the results of their on-line survey questioning the inclusion of crossbows in the current archery season in Alberta.

Yes - 37%
No - 44%
Unsure - 19%

The announcement at the Alberta Fish & Game Association Convention is that crossbows will not be included in the 2011 Alberta archery season.

 

[Polar Man]

If the archery snobs are really that convinced that crossbows are that much easier to use, they can;
A) Get themselves a crossbow.
B) Be happy their precious sport has been made that much more "challenging".

 

[Jay]

Alberta Sustainable Resources Department has today released the results of their on-line survey questioning the inclusion of crossbows in the current archery season in Alberta.

Yes - 37%
No - 44%
Unsure - 19%

The announcement at the Alberta Fish & Game Association Convention is that crossbows will not be included in the 2011 Alberta archery season.

A very close minded decision IMHO. A bow is a bow & the more people we can get involved in the sport the better... I've said it before & I'll say it again, outdoor shooting sports enthusiasts MUST stand shoulder to shoulder on these issues! Elitism will be the downfall of our sport! A good example is a deer hunter with his bolt gun NOT defending his or her fellow sportsman that shoots pistols. I've heard it before, "Why do you need a pistol?"... Well, I need it because I enjoy that sport! Enough said!

Mark my words folks, this elite attitude is the foothold that the anti's will use to slowly kill our sport, IF we don't stick together. Anyone hedging any bets as to when we will see the spring bear season back in Ontario? I didn't think so! Rant off.

Regards
Jay

 

[Krazed]

pretty much jay... there are a lot of hunters who simply don't give a sh!t about target shooters, and would happily throw handgunners under the bus to protect their "deer guns"

yeah well have fun defending your deer gun, when you're the last ones left, when they call it a high power sniper rifle that can blow someone in half