Should I buy a Norc M305?

[albayo]

I have had just about every kind of M14, M1A, and Norinco and haven't had a problem with any of them.
I tried hunting with my Winchester back in the day but like the rest have indicated too heavy to walk with.
I went back to a custom 7-08.
My 305 is one of my range guns because they aren't cheap to shoot for the day.

 

[emerson]

All about how much to pay. Stock used I would hesitate past $500. Unless it's tweaked by the notables mentioned above, more added parts don't necessarily add value. It will NEVER BE A PRECISION RIFLE. It's like an 80's 5.0l mustang. Fun to play with and tweak.

 

[jdx23]

If you like to tinker, or want to learn, it's a great rifle to get into with the understanding that it's not going to be perfect right out of the box. If you're in Toronto, you have the advantage of being relatively close (Collingwood) to Canada's M14 guru Barney (aka Tactical Teacher) who can teach you loads about the m14 rifle. Only thing to be aware of, is replacing Chinese parts with USGI can get pricey. It can turn into a money pit (as mine did lol). But I learned a ton throughout the process, had fun, and it's an amazing rifle that you will really get to know if you put in the time.

 

[m14medic.ca]

I am biased...

I really like M-14 pattern rifles. But I need something in my life that I needs tweaking and needs to be worked on. It's why I own a Motorcycle, Snowmobile and an older truck. It also another reason Hand-loading appeals to me as well....

That said, buy a new Shortie and you're rolling the dice. About 50% of the ones I look at are in need of serious work, 20% are boat anchors. A customer of mine and I were at a local G-store looking over a fresh batch of shorties that had just come in, of the 25 rifles in the store I found 2 that were worth the effort of tuning. 7 rifles were sent back to the distributor after I showed the sort owner what was wrong with them.

If you have the inclination to buy a new M305/Polytech/M14S/Bell Lifestyle M14 Pattern rifle, I would suggest heading to a B&M store that will let you do all the safety checks in-house before purchase or; Order online form a retailer that has at minimum a non-firing 7 day inspection return policy. I know of only 1 online retailer that will offer a full one year warranty on Norinco Rifles.

There is another option. I offer a 1-year "bumper to bumper" warranty and a lifetime labour warranty on the rifles I have purchased and then rebuilt. but you are not paying $650. My current inventory runs from $1200-$4700..... I think you get what you pay for.

John

 

[577/450]

DO IT--------------JUST DO IT
lol fun guns not too costly fun, shoot reasonably well out of the box. Only downside is ammo, you have got to be reloading cause a couple boxes of .308 lasts about 15 minutes. Or less.

 

[LordEvilPepper]

The M305 is a lot of value in a gun, but in my opinion you must be comfortable with the idea of doing a bit of adjustment. If you are so mechanically declined that you aren't sure which end of the screwdriver to hold onto, you have no business owning a M305.

On the other hand I think LordEvilPepper overstates the challenges. There is no reason you have to own headspace gauges to own one of these rifles, and I have never, ever heard of Norinco receivers having issues. In fact they are usually considered the best civilian market receivers ever made. Rifles with significant problems can be returned under warrantee, you can expect to be dealing only with minor or moderate issues.

I would argue that you should own a set of head space gauges for all calibers you shoot or get them checked out from time to time. "New" doesn't mean safe, I've learned that the hard way.
With some guns the head space stays pretty rock solid, some guns it moves very quickly as parts fatigue and wear: M305s are realy bad for it. Bad headspacing can cause a large amount of damage to your gun, it can seriously injure you, it can injure people next to you, IT CAN KILL YOU.
you wouldn't drive a car with a loose head because 2 thou out of spec and its pissing gasses from the pistons out and coolant is leaking everywhere. within short order you blow the motor.
If your guns not operating within spec even just 2 thou out, why would you trust it to create an explosion 3 inches from your face? An explosion that has enough power to hurl a 150gr piece of lead 1000m before it goes through your body. If the case head separates, it can put the bolt through your head, if your hand is around the mag well you may very well need 40-100 stitches to put it back together if you don't lose it. Even if you escape the shrapnel the hot gas can burn and blind you. I have had rifles blow up on me... when my ruger went, it peppered the firing line with pieces of the stock and mag, the hot escaping the back and deflecting off the scope bell burned a hole through my cheek, if I hadn't been wearing ballistics I might have very well lost my right eye.

Its $50 for a set. They last a lifetime if you look after them, you can use them on all your .308 rifles.
buy them, use them; if its out of spec stop firing the gun and fix it.


here is a video of a deliberate bad head space condition (for training) and what happens

here is a person shooting a AK that had bad headspacing (from factory)

.308 falls nicely inbetween these rounds

 

[t-star]

you should also mention that you need 7.62x51 gauges, not 308 win gauges- there IS a difference, and different explains it in his book- longer story short the difference is in the go/no gauges with the 308 being longer incrementally- ie a go guage will fit, but a no/go might , and a field won't- if u change to 308 Winchester, the go fits, the no go also fits and the field also fits- when in fact you have an excessive headspace condition in the 7.62x51 chamber

 

[LordEvilPepper]

you should also mention that you need 7.62x51 gauges, not 308 win gauges- there IS a difference

they come stamped .308

if you plan on using .308 ammo you should be using .308 gauges especially the steel cased .308 ammo. it is more susceptible to case head failure as the steel doesn't have as much "stretch" as brass.

if you only plan on firing 7.62 nato surplus (good luck finding it) then you can use just 7.62 nato gauges

 

[Stripes]

I am biased...

I really like M-14 pattern rifles. But I need something in my life that I needs tweaking and needs to be worked on. It's why I own a Motorcycle, Snowmobile and an older truck. It also another reason Hand-loading appeals to me as well....

That said, buy a new Shortie and you're rolling the dice. About 50% of the ones I look at are in need of serious work, 20% are boat anchors. A customer of mine and I were at a local G-store looking over a fresh batch of shorties that had just come in, of the 25 rifles in the store I found 2 that were worth the effort of tuning. 7 rifles were sent back to the distributor after I showed the sort owner what was wrong with them.

If you have the inclination to buy a new M305/Polytech/M14S/Bell Lifestyle M14 Pattern rifle, I would suggest heading to a B&M store that will let you do all the safety checks in-house before purchase or; Order online form a retailer that has at minimum a non-firing 7 day inspection return policy. I know of only 1 online retailer that will offer a full one year warranty on Norinco Rifles.

There is another option. I offer a 1-year "bumper to bumper" warranty and a lifetime labour warranty on the rifles I have purchased and then rebuilt. but you are not paying $650. My current inventory runs from $1200-$4700..... I think you get what you pay for.

John

As much as I'd love a fully built rifle it's a bit out of my price range at the moment! Thanks for the heads up on the shorties though

So you'd recommend a 22 over the 18.5?

I would argue that you should own a set of head space gauges for all calibers you shoot or get them checked out from time to time. "New" doesn't mean safe, I've learned that the hard way.
With some guns the head space stays pretty rock solid, some guns it moves very quickly as parts fatigue and wear: M305s are realy bad for it. Bad headspacing can cause a large amount of damage to your gun, it can seriously injure you, it can injure people next to you, IT CAN KILL YOU.
you wouldn't drive a car with a loose head because 2 thou out of spec and its pissing gasses from the pistons out and coolant is leaking everywhere. within short order you blow the motor.
If your guns not operating within spec even just 2 thou out, why would you trust it to create an explosion 3 inches from your face? An explosion that has enough power to hurl a 150gr piece of lead 1000m before it goes through your body. If the case head separates, it can put the bolt through your head, if your hand is around the mag well you may very well need 40-100 stitches to put it back together if you don't lose it. Even if you escape the shrapnel the hot gas can burn and blind you. I have had rifles blow up on me... when my ruger went, it peppered the firing line with pieces of the stock and mag, the hot escaping the back and deflecting off the scope bell burned a hole through my cheek, if I hadn't been wearing ballistics I might have very well lost my right eye.

Its $50 for a set. They last a lifetime if you look after them, you can use them on all your .308 rifles.
buy them, use them; if its out of spec stop firing the gun and fix it.


here is a video of a deliberate bad head space condition (for training) and what happens

here is a person shooting a AK that had bad headspacing (from factory)

.308 falls nicely inbetween these rounds

I'll be sure to pick up a headspace gauge if I grab one of these rifles

 

[t-star]

he's got you worried over NOTHING - there's thousands of these rifles in circulation without having the headspace gauged - I got 3 brand new ones from marstar that's a gambol i'm willing to take- I got my first back in 93 when there were so called" soft bolt"s excessive headspace and they were considered grenades from china- turns out it was nothing but a well published HOAX from clint McKee that generated from ONE factory and he had a vested interest as he was also selling m14/m1a rifles- sure elp's rifle blew up on him due to excessive headspace, and I know of ONE other out in bc somewhere but I doubt if we're talking 5 rifles in total- and while you're at it ,read the REST of elp's posts and form your own opinion- I have

 

[t-star]

also what they're NOT telling you is that you set the timing and headspace on the m2 MANUALLY and this is what happens when you don't do it properly- ie there's feeler gauges and other tools that EVERY operator uses before they bring the gun into action- same deal on the m1919

 

[Stripes]

he's got you worried over NOTHING - there's thousands of these rifles in circulation without having the headspace gauged - I got 3 brand new ones from marstar that's a gambol i'm willing to take- I got my first back in 93 when there were so called" soft bolt"s excessive headspace and they were considered grenades from china- turns out it was nothing but a well published HOAX from clint McKee that generated from ONE factory and he had a vested interest as he was also selling m14/m1a rifles- sure elp's rifle blew up on him due to excessive headspace, and I know of ONE other out in bc somewhere but I doubt if we're talking 5 rifles in total- and while you're at it ,read the REST of elp's posts and form your own opinion- I have

I understand that he might be overdoing it but I can appreciate where he's coming from. I'm the same way with telling young guys to wear safety glasses while working at my place of work. One bad experience and you're going to tell others to be careful. Plus as a mechanic I like to hoard tools so a set of headspace gauges is not a problem for me

I think I'm pretty much set on getting one of these rifles

 

[Odd Shot]

I love the M305, but be ready to tinker, buy some M305 tools, and attend one of Barney's (Tactical Teacher's) workshops.
Look for deals on 7.62 x 51 NATO ammo. It can be had for about 50-60 cents a round. The Norinco brand works quite well in the Norinco M305.

You will also want to ask yourself if you're going to keep it plain jane stock, or start dressing it up, etc.

 

[Stripes]

I love the M305, but be ready to tinker, buy some M305 tools, and attend one of Barney's (Tactical Teacher's) workshops.
Look for deals on 7.62 x 51 NATO ammo. It can be had for about 50-60 cents a round. The Norinco brand works quite well in the Norinco M305.

You will also want to ask yourself if you're going to keep it plain jane stock, or start dressing it up, etc.

Well I know for certain the cheap stock it comes in would be getting swapped out for a wooden one! The factory stock is laughably bad

 

[m14medic.ca]

As much as I'd love a fully built rifle it's a bit out of my price range at the moment! Thanks for the heads up on the shorties though

So you'd recommend a 22 over the 18.5?

Yes I would. the 22" rifles seem to be a bit less risky than the 18.5" when it comes to headspace, the bolt being in spec and gas system.

That said, if the retailer is going to give you a day or two to look it over, its pretty low risk.

Back when Marstar was a site sponsor, I would always tell guys not to gamble on a Factory shorty, buy a Rifle from Marstar and cut it down to 18.5".

After the "brouhaha" over the tipo Garands, and Marstar's departure from the forums as a site sponsor, I am not so sure that they are as reliable as I thought. That said, I have never had a "boat anchor" from Marstar.

John

 

[NaviDave]

I still have a 22" variant with a crooked front sight (came an upgraded oprod and mag release). I have a new M1a flash hider - but it is cost prohibitive to change as my local gunsmith won't touch it. Everyone wants hundreds to "optimize" as a package. I don't feel like making my own castle nut tool or ordering a soft metal tool from Brownells. My FH is also welded on.

Nevermind the fact that the headspace hasn't been verified. I can't see ever firing it - but I hate selling rifles...

I would recommend buying a used one that has been worked over/verified and paying a little extra.

 

[Matt308]

M14medic. When you talk of the 18.5s are you also talking about the socoms that canam was selling?

 

[t-star]

I still have a 22" variant with a crooked front sight (came an upgraded oprod and mag release). I have a new M1a flash hider - but it is cost prohibitive to change as my local gunsmith won't touch it. Everyone wants hundreds to "optimize" as a package. I don't feel like making my own castle nut tool or ordering a soft metal tool from Brownells. My FH is also welded on.

Nevermind the fact that the headspace hasn't been verified. I can't see ever firing it - but I hate selling rifles...

I would recommend buying a used one that has been worked over/verified and paying a little extra.

I wouldn't give up just yet, but take it to grumpy wolverine in Virden Manitoba- considering what he's got cooking re m14 rifles- there maybe more than 1 gunsmith in Manitoba, I should imagine , their knowledge varies from shade tree level to artiste- ie bozo to maestro
I've been in this game an awfully long time and I've run into my fair share of "gunsmith"s- my first encounter was with a guy that wouldn't work on a kar 98- claimed it was old army junk- tried to sell me a parker-hale instead and i'm LEFT HANDED- left no money there- then you run into the "i don't work on norinco junk guys- despite the fact the m3o5 is built on reverse engineered m14s- bottom line is they haven't a clue- it takes more than a set of screwdrivers and feeler gauges to make a gunsmith- the solution to your problem is right in the technical manual and it's simple- barney could fix that in under 5 min- all you need do is break the welds and then go at her with castle nut pliers

 

[McCDan]

Tradex (site sponsor) carries 22" M305's for $595 but they only come with one 5/5 mag. They have a 30 day return policy as long as it's unfired.

 

[joe6167]

Yes, the M14/M305/M1A is a PIG to service. Lots of specialized tools required to take it apart etc.

Do yourself a favour... DO NOT take the bolt apart! I took mine apart to clean all the Norinco oil off and just could not get it back together again! Spent 3 or 4 hours fighting with it and only succeeded in chewing up my hands! Trying to find a gunsmith who can bail me out of this jam! ...And I should mention that I'm not a TOTAL twit! I used to be a machinist and tool and die maker!! So I do have SOME mechanical aptitude...