Sig Cqb

cybershooters said:
Any short-barrelled 5.56mm on full-auto isn't going to last a fantastic amount of time IMO. I keep making this point to all the police units I see who buy the things. It's handier to have something with a 10-inch barrel, but these things aren't MP5s using pistol rounds, 5.56mm is MUCH higher pressure and the smaller the gun the faster the wear and tear.

I see people mentioning quantities of ammo like 5,000 rounds, which is nothing really for something used as an SMG. Go to a rental range in the US that has an MP5 and they typically put through 150,000 rounds through their guns before any major parts replacement.

The shorter the gas piston, the bigger the gas port, you've got more energy being transferred to a smaller mass to produce the same effect in cycling the gun. So it's going to break more easily, and forget about the barrel, no 5.56mm barrel will last anywhere near as long as something in 9mm. Just simple physics. Look at all the problems SOCOM have been having with their M4s, putting silly amounts of ammo through them. They're flipping carbines, i.e. guns for support personnel, not LMGs!

I do think the 551 is probably a wiser choice unless you absolutely MUST have something smaller. Ditto for an AR-15, the shorter the gap between the muzzle and the gas port, the less pressure build up there is at the gas port, so the gas port has to be made larger. This can lead to erratic cyclic rates and other nastiness. So then you have to use more sophisticated buffers, etc. to compensate.

Just use barrels that are a few inches longer. This is the best option, IMO. I know it's not always possible but I think it's more possible than a lot of people make out for CQB. It's like people who buy Glock 26s instead of 19s because the 26 is "more concealable". It may be easier to hide, but it's harder to shoot. In reality with minor effort the Glock 19 is easily concealed.

Moreover, if the barrel is longer, this means higher MV, and that will translate into more effective terminal ballistics also.

Good points Steve, but I think the difference in durability between the 551 and 552 has to do with the location of the gas port wrt the chamber. Since the 552 has the gas port located closer to the chamber, pressures are higher when the gas is tapped. I don't think the length of barrel in front of the gas port is the real issue.
 
Looking at the photos of the failures it clearly shows far more peening than should be present in a well designed and manufacture mechanism.

Either the part is making contact that it was not intended to make, or the material was not manufactured to the proper hardness.

However, SIG would need to investigate the problem to know which is the case, and the only way that they can do this is if they are informed of the failures and have the parts (and possibly the rifles themselves) returned to them for examination.
 
Rapt said:
Looking at the photos of the failures it clearly shows far more peening than should be present in a well designed and manufacture mechanism.

Either the part is making contact that it was not intended to make, or the material was not manufactured to the proper hardness.

However, SIG would need to investigate the problem to know which is the case, and the only way that they can do this is if they are informed of the failures and have the parts (and possibly the rifles themselves) returned to them for examination.

I agree... Just complaining here (I understand the comments are placed by people not in high company positions) will do nothing to solve the actual issues, if in actuality there are some, or, as indicated here, the true issues are operator error (never ruled out until a proper investigation is completed).
 
Rapt said:
Looking at the photos of the failures it clearly shows far more peening than should be present in a well designed and manufacture mechanism.

Either the part is making contact that it was not intended to make, or the material was not manufactured to the proper hardness.

However, SIG would need to investigate the problem to know which is the case, and the only way that they can do this is if they are informed of the failures and have the parts (and possibly the rifles themselves) returned to them for examination.

While it sucks to be the guy with the defective gun, nothing proves and improves the breed like racing. I think we often learn more from failure than we do from success.
 
Rapt said:
Looking at the photos of the failures it clearly shows far more peening than should be present in a well designed and manufacture mechanism.

Either the part is making contact that it was not intended to make, or the material was not manufactured to the proper hardness.

However, SIG would need to investigate the problem to know which is the case, and the only way that they can do this is if they are informed of the failures and have the parts (and possibly the rifles themselves) returned to them for examination.

And the peening is behind the carrier where the only parts that can make contact are the recoil spring and guide. So, either the recoil spring and guide were broken (we have been told they were not), or there was something in the rifle that should not have been.
Yes an interesting case that certainly should be investigated.
 
redleg said:
Good points Steve, but I think the difference in durability between the 551 and 552 has to do with the location of the gas port wrt the chamber. Since the 552 has the gas port located closer to the chamber, pressures are higher when the gas is tapped. I don't think the length of barrel in front of the gas port is the real issue.

Sorry I didn't make that point clearly, I did mean that too, but they're both important. Pressure will be higher when it's tapped, which means greater wear and tear, but also there is an issue with the pressure as the barrel leaves the barrel as the gas piston is still moving backward as the bullet leaves the barrel (it is on the longer barrels too but the longer the bullet is in the barrel as the gas is tapped the more consistent the pressure at the port). This was the problem with the XM177, erratic gas port pressure as the bullet left the barrel as the gas port was so close to the muzzle.

You might actually find this is why the SG552s in Iraq are breaking, perhaps. The Swiss ammo is loaded much more consistently than RG ammo. If you use inconsistently loaded ammo (posterchild: Radway Green) in a firearm that is susceptible to those sort of problems then you could have a bigger problem.

What kind of RG ammo is it that is being used in the SG552s in Iraq (Teddy, Bigred)? L2A2 ball or L15A1 ball? Special forces use L15A1 ball. Regular infantry more commonly use L2A2 although L15A1 has to be used in the Para Minimis. L2A2 is basically restricted to the SA80. Mind you, Lake City should work, and that's what you're using.
 
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Big_Red said:
I witnessed the bolt carrier break on the Sig and it took some time to remove it from the weapon afterwards as it was siezed inside. The failure happened on a grouping shoot (not rapid fire). The weapon had an extremely low round count.

Well just to state the obvious, but it could be one of several things, metallurgical failure, overpressure round, something else causing higher pressure, such as something in the barrel, possibly a shed bullet jacket?
 
cybershooters said:
Sorry I didn't make that point clearly, I did mean that too, but they're both important. Pressure will be higher when it's tapped, which means greater wear and tear, but also there is an issue with the pressure as the barrel leaves the barrel as the gas piston is still moving backward as the bullet leaves the barrel (it is on the longer barrels too but the longer the bullet is in the barrel as the gas is tapped the more consistent the pressure at the port). This was the problem with the XM177, erratic gas port pressure as the bullet left the barrel as the gas port was so close to the muzzle.

.

Longer pulses of high pressure should not be an issue with the SG55x design as the gas port is closed off once the piston starts moving rearwards (that is why the piston has the hole in it). I don't think the longer barrel in front of the gas port influences this design as much as the M16 system.
 
cybershooters said:
What kind of RG ammo is it that is being used in the SG552s in Iraq (Teddy, Bigred)? L2A2 ball or L15A1 ball? Special forces use L15A1 ball. Regular infantry more commonly use L2A2 although L15A1 has to be used in the Para Minimis. L2A2 is basically restricted to the SA80. Mind you, Lake City should work, and that's what you're using.

Sorry I couldn't tell you what version of the RG ammo it was. But after our initial firing pin breakages with it and the Croatian stuff, we purged it from the system and switched to the Lake City. But even that is dodgy, most of it looks to have been rescued from the burn barrel. It's never in its original packaging, and can be pretty tarnished, on the verge of turning green when we get it. Such is life I guess when you buy ammo on the local economy.
 
teddy49 said:
Sorry I couldn't tell you what version of the RG ammo it was. But after our initial firing pin breakages with it and the Croatian stuff, we purged it from the system and switched to the Lake City. But even that is dodgy, most of it looks to have been rescued from the burn barrel. It's never in its original packaging, and can be pretty tarnished, on the verge of turning green when we get it. Such is life I guess when you buy ammo on the local economy.

What did the brass look like that came out of the gun with the busted carrier? Was it in one piece? Bulges, etc?

It's really hot in Iraq, double-base propellants are susceptible to breaking down in high heat, although I would think the US has addressed that by now. But it's why the Australians use a single-base powder in their 5.56mm because it gets so hot in Australia. I remember talking to a CWO2 who mentioned that they had a lot of bolt breakages in their M4s until they switched ammo.
 
cybershooters said:
What did the brass look like that came out of the gun with the busted carrier? Was it in one piece? Bulges, etc?

It's really hot in Iraq, double-base propellants are susceptible to breaking down in high heat, although I would think the US has addressed that by now. But it's why the Australians use a single-base powder in their 5.56mm because it gets so hot in Australia. I remember talking to a CWO2 who mentioned that they had a lot of bolt breakages in their M4s until they switched ammo.

Not sure what the casings looked like after the bolt carrier cracked. They happened at a different site. I only got to see the aftermath, after they rifle made it's way to me.
 
Just an update since the last post two more Sigs on this site with broken return spring rods at the base of the rod. Ammo used was new M855. I'm carrying an AK till my new M4 upper arrives.
 
The replacement recoil spring guide I received from the local Swiss Arms importer last autumn is made of polymer, and I haven't had problems since (~ 2.500-3000 rounds fired since). The original spring guide died well before 1000 rounds fired :mad:
 
MPI said:
REALLY.:eek: Did it do any damage like the others, to the bolt etc? What ammo were you using?

No other damage, just the broken rod (well as a result the recoil spring was naturally also bent). Been using misc cheap ammo (55gr Sellier&Bellot, AE, PMC, Magtech, Wolf etc), nothing very hot that is. It might make a difference that I've been using a suppressor from time to time (probably gives stronger blowback with a suppressor).

Some pics in a Finnish forum (these ones not mine).
 
Big_Red said:
Just an update since the last post two more Sigs on this site with broken return spring rods at the base of the rod. Ammo used was new M855. I'm carrying an AK till my new M4 upper arrives.

Haha I see the AK has always been the fallback weapon till the more expensive toys get fixed or come in ;)
 
most of you are just jealous because i have one, you cant afford it so u just talk trash about it, you havent even held one and you never will, sorry 2 sound stuck up but, if you talk trash i will talk 2 u like trash, it is the MOST RELIABLE, ACURATE AND ###Y carbine available in canada, ur malfunctions are just due to your stupidity, you probably didnt even clean or lube the thing or break the barrel in, so 2 U haters, please please, if you see me at the range with a cqb dont ask me " can i try that out? " because i will always say NO 2 trash like u
 
1inchgroup said:
most of you are just jealous because i have one, you cant afford it so u just talk trash about it, you havent even held one and you never will, sorry 2 sound stuck up but, if you talk trash i will talk 2 u like trash, it is the MOST RELIABLE, ACURATE AND ###Y carbine available in canada, ur malfunctions are just due to your stupidity, you probably didnt even clean or lube the thing or break the barrel in, so 2 U haters, please please, if you see me at the range with a cqb dont ask me " can i try that out? " because i will always say NO 2 trash like u

BAHAHAHAHAHA, this is a joke, right?
 
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