The 30-06 connects an enormous amount of dots.
Since we are discussing efficiency these days, the reasonable 300 Magnums.
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The 30-06 connects an enormous amount of dots.
Dogleg, for years when I was guiding up here, I always kind of smiled when hunters showed up with their 300 Magnums. I had killed or seen killed everything that walked with 270s and 30-06 rifles, and 'knew' that the magnums were just not needed. Then one day I got a crank on for a 308 Norma Mag, and went over to see Bevan King.
From there, it flowed to the 300 Win and the Weatherby, and the amazing thing was they didn't give me headaches, and were quite accurate. The Winchester in particular, is very accurate and easy to hit with in any rifle that is light enough to be easily carried all day. Both of mine weigh a tad over eight pounds carried on my shoulder.
The old Speer manuals showed the 300 Win getting 180 spitzers out at 3200 fps from 24 inch barrels with IMR4350. I loaded that in several rifles. It is certainly a mittful at the bench, but I never felt the recoil when hunting.
Ted
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It certainly does, and is enough for everything we hunt up here. Then again, so is the 303 Br,... and the 30-30. It all depends on how close you want to get before taking the shot.
Several of the best hunters and guides I knew up here carried Model 94 Winchesters for years, and killed everything from gophers to grizzlies with them. They told me they carried them because they were light, and easy to get into action. Why not?
Ted
I've owned, loaded and hunted the 300 WSM, 300 H&H, 300 Win, 308 Norma and 300 Wby. Multiples of most of them. I have yet to encounter an animal or situation where one would have made any difference over another in this group. Pick a rifle you like in any of these and go hunting, it'll get the job done if you do your part.
As far as efficiency is concerned the smaller ones, the WSM and H&H give more fps for the powder burned but not in any meaningful way. They are the slowest of the bunch though and really it's all just the rule of diminishing returns that exists for every caliber as you progress upwards in powder burn and velocity. I like the WSM when I'm looking for the lightest possible rifle. Mine is a Kimber Montana and it happens to have a fast barrel, 3150 fps with 180gr Partitions and book loads. My H&H is a pre-64 and I've always gotten 3050 fps with 180s and IMR 4350. I never saw John Barsness article on the H&H, what makes him say 4350 is no good? I've always done better with 4350 than with slower powders.
To me the Win and Norma are peas in a pod, same velocities depending on barrel and length more than which of the two is chambered. Both are great cartridges. My own current 300 Wby is a Remington 700 and also has a fast barrel, easy 3300 fps with 180s and book loads, haven't hunted this rifle yet but it should do fine as long as the muzzle blast doesn't start a grass fire.
As far as efficiency is concerned the smaller ones, the WSM and H&H give more fps for the powder burned but not in any meaningful way. They are the slowest of the bunch though and really it's all just the rule of diminishing returns that exists for every caliber as you progress upwards in powder burn and velocity. I like the WSM when I'm looking for the lightest possible rifle. Mine is a Kimber Montana and it happens to have a fast barrel, 3150 fps with 180gr Partitions and book loads. My H&H is a pre-64 and I've always gotten 3050 fps with 180s and IMR 4350. I never saw John Barsness article on the H&H, what makes him say 4350 is no good? I've always done better with 4350 than with slower powders.
To me the Win and Norma are peas in a pod, same velocities depending on barrel and length more than which of the two is chambered. Both are great cartridges. My own current 300 Wby is a Remington 700 and also has a fast barrel, easy 3300 fps with 180s and book loads, haven't hunted this rifle yet but it should do fine as long as the muzzle blast doesn't start a grass fire.
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Dogleg, for years when I was guiding up here, I always kind of smiled when hunters showed up with their 300 Magnums. I had killed or seen killed everything that walked with 270s and 30-06 rifles, and 'knew' that the magnums were just not needed. Then one day I got a crank on for a 308 Norma Mag, and went over to see Bevan King.
Ted
The .270 has its fans. The 30-06 has its fans. Combine the two so you get 30-06 bullets and .270 speed and its greater than the sum of its parts. You’d think that all the guys would want to break out the good whiskey and throw a parade, but some of them don't.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I'm sure I've used it before, but no matter. Take it, its yours.
See that's what I like about Dogleg, he'd give your the shirt off his back or his words off the page.
Here's one reference:
Handloader Magazine, Volume 37, No 6.
"It always seemed to me that a 180-grain bullet at 3,000 fps was the real strength of any of the smaller .300 magnums, so the first load used the 180-grain Nosler Partition. I’d fooled around with a custom .300 H&H from D’Arcy Echols before, so knew enough to avoid the 4350s with 180-grain bullets. Best of show turned out to be (surprise!) Alliant Reloder 22, with 71 grains averaging about 3,050 fps and about .7 inch for three shots at 100 yards. Other than that, all the usual suspects worked acceptably with 180-grain bullets, especially Hodgdon H-4831, Norma 204 and RL-19."
IIRC, in other articles the concern was accuracy, not velocity.
Ted
Right, and that was the light that went on for me. You could have more than the best of both in trajectory and power! The 7mm magnums were not a lot more than noisy 270s that didn't kill any better than a 30-06. The 300 Mags on the other hand, did better than all of three of them, and did it considerably farther out.
I think a lot of the recoil concern could be remedied if people would set up so they can sit upright at the bench while shooting their rifles on targets, instead of getting all crunched down and bent over behind the rifle.
Ted
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
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Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
That's a 'ploy' I've used on a few occasions at the range. When the groups start opening up a bit, and
usually it's been because of my trigger control 'issues'. Roaring a few top end loads from a .458WM, then going back to what I was originally shooting, has often helped tighten the groups.Recoil is mostly mental; or nobody would be able to get used to it. They don’t wake up one morning with a callus on their shoulder, but with a callus of the mind. Heck; they may discover that they like recoil and miss it when it isnt there.
There is a local golf course that I played regularly (back when I had time to golf)... the 16th hole used to kill me, it was laid out all wrong for my power draw, the fairway sloped away to the left into trouble, making double bogey there derailed many good rounds for me. That hole got in my head and I would start thinking about it as soon as I made the turn, by the time I reached the tee, there was virtually no way that I was going to hit a good drive, and believe me I tried every trick there, including the humiliating "three nine irons for a bogey method." Finally, I said "screw it" I'm going to change my attitude and embrace the challenge and start to look forward to the opportunity to test myself against the hole, before too many rounds had gone by, the double bogeys were gone, the bogeys were rare, the pars were regular and I had birdied it several times... and I couldn't wait to step onto the tee box, it is still my favourite hole to this day... my ability to deal with it (or not) was entirely mental... it had started as a minor physical problem; my draw versus the left slope, but it became primarily a mental hurdle... much like recoil, a loud "bang" and a push to the shoulder can be very scary, it is abrupt and can make the brain stammer... until you embrace it, look forward to it, and learn to enjoy it as part of the process... and then all of a sudden you realize that you don't really notice it much any more... and usually that you have become a much better shot, without the electrical short in your brain at the moment of ignition.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The key to mastering recoil is wanting to. If you don't want to, you'll never be able to. I got beat up pretty good shooting a 7.62X54R Mosin Nagant carbine with that wicked curved butt plate, and concluded that big rifles were beyond me. Then I had an epiphany of sorts after reading Ross Seyfried's article on the .416 Rigby, and knew that life would not be complete until I owned one and could shoot it well. I managed to scrape enough together for dies, brass ($200/50) and bullets, powder and primers I already had on hand, and got a shiny new .416 Rigby Ruger #1. On my first attempt I lit up 102 grs of 4350 under a 350 gr X bullet, and never looked back. Before long I was shooting it prone. The only recoil induced problems I faced was the bedding of the butt stock was uneven causing it to split, and getting custom quarter rib made so I could mount the 1.5-5X Leupold so the ocular was even with the forward face of the falling block, thus it neither interfered with loading/unloading, and there was no chance of getting tagged with the scope.
From that point on I've owned .458s and .375 Ultras, and truly enjoy shooting them all. In Africa I hunted with a .500 Nitro, and when visiting Whitehorse I burned up an embarrassing amount of C-FBMI's .470 ammo in his double. Okay, the part about truly enjoying them all is a lie. When I first mounted the 1-4 Nightforce on the .458, I liked the mount very much and didn't want to change it, even though the ocular of the long eyepiece was well behind the cocking piece, and sure enough, I got careless and got tagged. You haven't lived until you've got a scope cut from a hot loaded .458. Even now when I pick up that rifle I have a moment of discomfort, but it goes away after a couple of shots are fired, and when that muzzle rises up 30 degrees I get that big smile on my face.
As a result of that little mishap, I came up with a few personal rules for shooting heavy kickers, the first being and most important being never allowing the rifle to hurt you. Don't fire a hard kicking rifle with the pocket of your shoulder open ( high elbow position) pull your elbow down and put a layer of muscle between the rifle butt and the shoulder pocket. Its amazing how many people a scared to shoot their big rifles from anything but offhand, but them assume an olympic off hand position. Square up to the target a bit more and keep you elbow closer to your body. Do not shoot too many rounds at a time, if 3 is enough don't shoot 5, particularly from supported field positions or from the bench, and if 3 are too many shoot 2 and if 2 are too many, reduce the load.
Pay attention to how the rifle is set up. Don't put yourself in a position where the scope can hit you. If you are like me and prefer your rifles to have short LOPs, be sure the scope is mounted well forward. On my first .375 Ultra, I used a scout scope, things would have gone very wrong if I got tagged with that. On my Ruger #1, the custom quarter rib had the scope far enough forward I'd never be hit, but it limited the magnification of the glass to 3X, any higher and the image donutted. This didn't prevent me from taking advantage of the rifle's flat trajectory and do some very credible shooting out to a quarter mile on realistic sized targets. I move the forward sling swivel to the radius of the forend to prevent recoil induced cuts to the forefinger of my support hand. Another adaptation I made was to have a knuckle deflector installed behind the trigger guard of my Brno 602. Due to the way the pistol grip of the McMillan Express stock crowded the trigger guard, each time the rifle fired, the knuckle of my middle finger got a painful wrap from the trigger guard. A little piece of contoured nylon screwed to the rear of the trigger guard resolved the problem neatly and inexpensively. If the recoil pad doesn't cushion the rifle butt in recoil, replace it. If the LOP is too long, felt recoil will be more intense, so shorten the stock. The best way to reduce the recoil experience though is with good hearing protection. If you find the report painful, you will never shoot that rifle well, and you will probably blame it on recoil.
Other rules pertain to the welfare of the rifle, such as examining the bedding to ensure the stock will not fail. You might have to add a second recoil lug along the barrel. The stock, particularly if wood, will benefit from being cross-bolted, but in a synthetic stock it acts like rebar in concrete and strengthens the structure of the material. If the rifle doesn't feed reliably, that problem must be addressed, either by changing the style of bullet you use, the seating depth of the bullet, of sending the rifle out to have the problem addressed by a gunsmith. Hard kicking rifles are no place for a poor trigger. If you have a long tedious pull before the trigger breaks, chances are when the rifle finally fires, it will be loose in you your shoulder. If the trigger is too light, the rifle will fire before you're ready for it to fire, and you won't enjoy that. Of course all this pertains to big rifles, not little .300 magnums.
From that point on I've owned .458s and .375 Ultras, and truly enjoy shooting them all. In Africa I hunted with a .500 Nitro, and when visiting Whitehorse I burned up an embarrassing amount of C-FBMI's .470 ammo in his double. Okay, the part about truly enjoying them all is a lie. When I first mounted the 1-4 Nightforce on the .458, I liked the mount very much and didn't want to change it, even though the ocular of the long eyepiece was well behind the cocking piece, and sure enough, I got careless and got tagged. You haven't lived until you've got a scope cut from a hot loaded .458. Even now when I pick up that rifle I have a moment of discomfort, but it goes away after a couple of shots are fired, and when that muzzle rises up 30 degrees I get that big smile on my face.
As a result of that little mishap, I came up with a few personal rules for shooting heavy kickers, the first being and most important being never allowing the rifle to hurt you. Don't fire a hard kicking rifle with the pocket of your shoulder open ( high elbow position) pull your elbow down and put a layer of muscle between the rifle butt and the shoulder pocket. Its amazing how many people a scared to shoot their big rifles from anything but offhand, but them assume an olympic off hand position. Square up to the target a bit more and keep you elbow closer to your body. Do not shoot too many rounds at a time, if 3 is enough don't shoot 5, particularly from supported field positions or from the bench, and if 3 are too many shoot 2 and if 2 are too many, reduce the load.
Pay attention to how the rifle is set up. Don't put yourself in a position where the scope can hit you. If you are like me and prefer your rifles to have short LOPs, be sure the scope is mounted well forward. On my first .375 Ultra, I used a scout scope, things would have gone very wrong if I got tagged with that. On my Ruger #1, the custom quarter rib had the scope far enough forward I'd never be hit, but it limited the magnification of the glass to 3X, any higher and the image donutted. This didn't prevent me from taking advantage of the rifle's flat trajectory and do some very credible shooting out to a quarter mile on realistic sized targets. I move the forward sling swivel to the radius of the forend to prevent recoil induced cuts to the forefinger of my support hand. Another adaptation I made was to have a knuckle deflector installed behind the trigger guard of my Brno 602. Due to the way the pistol grip of the McMillan Express stock crowded the trigger guard, each time the rifle fired, the knuckle of my middle finger got a painful wrap from the trigger guard. A little piece of contoured nylon screwed to the rear of the trigger guard resolved the problem neatly and inexpensively. If the recoil pad doesn't cushion the rifle butt in recoil, replace it. If the LOP is too long, felt recoil will be more intense, so shorten the stock. The best way to reduce the recoil experience though is with good hearing protection. If you find the report painful, you will never shoot that rifle well, and you will probably blame it on recoil.
Other rules pertain to the welfare of the rifle, such as examining the bedding to ensure the stock will not fail. You might have to add a second recoil lug along the barrel. The stock, particularly if wood, will benefit from being cross-bolted, but in a synthetic stock it acts like rebar in concrete and strengthens the structure of the material. If the rifle doesn't feed reliably, that problem must be addressed, either by changing the style of bullet you use, the seating depth of the bullet, of sending the rifle out to have the problem addressed by a gunsmith. Hard kicking rifles are no place for a poor trigger. If you have a long tedious pull before the trigger breaks, chances are when the rifle finally fires, it will be loose in you your shoulder. If the trigger is too light, the rifle will fire before you're ready for it to fire, and you won't enjoy that. Of course all this pertains to big rifles, not little .300 magnums.
