SKS need help , please

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Horilka said:
So what in your opinion would constitute truly original stock to the rifle? :)...
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A truly original stock for this rifle, in my opinion would, first and foremost have NO arsenal star on the stock. It would have only the serial number on the but stock. And it would the same deep red finish but it would be laminate instead of hardwood.



Horilka said:
...Having same font on both laminated and hardwood stocks in "И"-series is not enough? Even when this font is way different from fonts used by GRAU arsenals responsible for refurbishing?
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Are you saying that there was only one facility that refurbished rifles. The lists I've seen indicate at least a dozen (likely more) separate refurbishment facilities throughout the USSR with both differences and similarities between the stock fonts used. There are numerous blatant refurbs with stock fonts that are identical those on original carbines.
 
As it see it, between 1955-1956 several assembly protocols changed. One of those protocols was the switch from hardwood to laminate, thus the change numerous examples of 1955's and 1956's in both laminate and hardwood stocks and also exhibiting all traits associated with original condition.

By 1957 the transition was complete--- hence 99.9999% of 1957 and 1958 carbines exhibiting only those traits associated with original condition are found in laminate stocks.

So, why does this particular carbine break from the post 1956 standard, and sit in hardwood stock?

If there were just the one break from the standard, your argument would carry more weight. But your rifle breaks with yet a second stock specific standard adopted in late 1955: the omission of the Tula star from the stock.

So your stock breaks with two verifiable protocols attributed to 1955 - 1958. And in the absence of further photographic verification, one must take into consideration that there may still be other features on this rifle suggestive of refurbishment.

What this leads to is a very high probability-- (certainty if yer asking me) -- that your rifle ended up in that hardwood stock at a refurb facility.
 
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Loose-Cannon said:
I don't believe the rifle was reblued. I am however perplexed as to why people still believe that if a serial matches the receiver it MUST be factory original to the rifle. Just how many fonts are there on 45s? I'm guessing its also inconceivable that a rework facility would dare use the same font?
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Never said that matching number means factory original. I said the font on the stock of the rifle I presented is exactly the same as on other non-refurbs I-series with laminated stocks (and hardwood too). And I said it is different from fonts (note plural) used by GRAU arsenals. And no, they did not use same fonts unless it's proved (which is not).

Boris Badinov said:
What this leads to is a very high probability-- (certainty if yer asking me) -- that your rifle ended up in that hardwood stock at a refurb facility.
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I am not the one who "should listen" (c), all explanations I have already provided. Until actual production information on letter series is published your conclusions are as good as mine, except for one thing. The weight of your and mine opinion is evaluated by collectors based on your and my reputation, the knowledge both of us showed in the area of history of Soviet firearms development. And I think that my reputation is fine here or on GB forum :)
 
I have seen thousands of refurbed stocks with force matched serial stamps, many of which are indistinguishable from the stamp fonts seen on original carbines.


I'm sure you are a very cool individual. I know because we share similar interests. And I have no doubt that you are well liked by many on this and other forums. But these factors don't in any way contribute to (nor do they detract from) the strength.or weakness of your argument.

Your argument stumbles not on your personality ar reputation. It falters on the merits of the rifle itself.
 
When I look at Horilka's SKS, the star on the stock is so rough, chipping the sides of the star. It looks like some Bubba stabed it with a dull chisel. Also , the s/n seems to be fresh. Should be dark.
 
jaroslav said:
When I look at Horilka's SKS, the star on the stock is so rough, chipping the sides of the star. It looks like some Bubba stabed it with a dull chisel. Also , the s/n seems to be fresh. Should be dark.
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The star is rough, yes. But it appears to be an authentic Tula star.

But post 1955, the Tula star and date stamps on the stocks were entirely abandoned as part of the production process.

And there is still an argument to be made for an as issued 1957 letter gun in a hardwood stock. But it requires a lot of externally corroborating evidence. Evidence that as yet, is surely lacking.
 
Boris Badinov said:
The star is rough, yes. But it appears to be an authentic Tula star.

But post 1955, the Tula star and date stamps on the stocks were entirely abandoned as part of the production process.
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Sources? Observations, right? Overthrown by another observations. Abandoned during regular production, yes, yet apparently some stocks still had them in letter series and there's an explanation you're not willing to accept. Explanation that perfectly worked for another guns - like MNs and SVTs, with confirmed examples of authentic rifle with parts made years before.

Boris Badinov said:
And there is still an argument to be made for an as issued 1957 letter gun in a hardwood stock. But it requires a lot of externally corroborating evidence. Evidence that as yet, is surely lacking.
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Again, what are your sources about "using exclusively laminated stocks"? Factory documents published anywhere? You have no evidences that only laminated stocks were used and observations tell us that both types were used on letter series.


Here, found this old discussion. Enjoy more pictures of this very rifle and other collectors' options, including thoughts about irregularity of letter series production. Bp2626 when he was in collecting business use to be most scrupulous Soviet firearm collector I knew. And I managed to convince even him.
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?404380-Letter-series-K-SKS-45-authenticity-question
 
Please show us all the other examples of post 1956-1958 letter guns with Tula stars:


Unless you can do that, your rifle will always be a "most likely refurb".


From which distributor did you acquire this rifle?
 
Loose-Cannon said:
If you convince RM, I would be inclined to lean your way. Right now Im 50/50..... win me over.
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This would go a long way imo as well. I'm at 90/10

The Tula star stamp on the stock is a HUGE RED FLAG. I have seen exactly ZERO Tula stars on any soviet letter guns which also exhibit the traits associated with original condition.
 
Also, it's an absolutely beautiful rifle.
I would not hesitate to add such a rifle to my collection at US prices -- regardless of the star on the stock.
 
Would also benefit to see the ep serial and surface finish of the gas tube and piston as well as a clear, hd photo of the annealing stripe on the top cover.

From what I can see in the photos provided, there is no hint of an annealing stripe. The annealing stripe is a trait on all variants. If it isnt visible it has been reblued or painted-- which would indicate refurbishment
 
These 'many' crates you opened ..... were the 'as issued' examples random, or were they only in cases with sequential serial numbered guns?
 
I think, Horilka is right.Why would the Soviets give the Chinese all the tooling in 1956 and still produce SKS in the Tula factory? The SKS after 1955 must have been put together from leftover parts in small shops.
 
And there's the delema.


An old friend of mine had correspondence with a gentleman in Russia that was adamant that the Letter guns were not assembled at Tula. We know old stock components were used at the beginning of the letter series as observed in the 55/56 transitional guns. See here. https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1079.0

The issue is. Since they were not assembled at Tula, and the transitional guns show a CLEAR omitted use of the Tula star on the receiver, cover, and stock. The gun having said tula star on the stock is problematic to the conveyor who insists its original to the weapon.

I can see that a letter K 'could' have a hardwood stock as apposed to a laminate because we don't have a clear idea of exactly when the switch was made etc. But why was the stock stamped Tula when it was omitted in 55/56? By 1958 there should be no such Tula stamping unless its a replacement.
 
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