SKS need help , please

[Boris Badinov]

I.just want to know why you didnt take photos of all the matching serials. Pretty simple. You sold it as an original, all matching, rifle. Lots of photos. But a total of ZERO of the piston and gas tube.

On the surface it's the definition of a shady sales pitch.

 

[Boris Badinov]

###

 

[Horilka]

I.just want to know why you didnt take photos of all the matching serials. Pretty simple. You sold it as an original, all matching, rifle. Lots of photos. But a total of ZERO of the piston and gas tube.

On the surface it's the definition of a shady sales pitch.

I had five rifles back then, iirc 3 of them were not refurbished. I took same set of pics for all of them. I was challenged by Bryan bp2626, very avid Soviet stuff collector back then. He also was not comfortable with star, but fine with rifle. So I took several more pics of the stock. All of this is posted on GB thread I referred earlier. You see, unlike you, Bryan did not think rifle is refurbished, he thought star is faked. And only stock and star were topic of discussion. You also have to understand that non refurb rifles are common in Canada and back in 2014 and 2015 they were dirt cheap. Most of traders here don't bother to make decent pictures at all. I know it's different down the border with your prices.

 

[pcvando]

I wasn't sure to be honest, I paid $250, but the guy said it was original, and for that reason I've never shot it. Now that I know I think I'll just take it the farm and out a few hundred through it.
Thanks for the info, I do appreciate it.
Cheers, Greg

The serial on yours is a little oddly placed but there are so many varieties of refurbs and different depots all over the USSR, so I won’t comment further on that.

The bluing looks to be redone on some parts in particular the trigger guard and floorplate, but receiver looks like it has its original bluing. Stock lightly sanded as well before new serial applied.

Solid looking rifle though, and should make a good shooter.

Original truly non refurb rifles are certainly north of $250! Dealers have sold out over $450.

 

[pcvando]

I.just want to know why you didnt take photos of all the matching serials. Pretty simple. You sold it as an original, all matching, rifle. Lots of photos. But a total of ZERO of the piston and gas tube.

On the surface it's the definition of a shady sales pitch.

He really isn’t into this for profit, he is a very advanced collector and in this for the passion.

People are very quick to write off fakes but in this case I think his star is likely factory done, but why will remain a mystery. Iirc, I’ve seen a few late rifles with this star and no date. When I come across more I’ll be certain to take pics. It just seems odd to be a fake. It enhances the rifles value by nothing, just looks I suppose

Also - I’ll be posting pics of my factory matching non refurb letter series rifles at some point in the coming week.

 

[pcvando]

Original stocks were laminate on the 1957/ И letter rifles.

I disagree, I’ve seen many 1957’s with original hardwood stocks. They used both post 1956.

 

[Boris Badinov]

I had five rifles back then, iirc 3 of them were not refurbished. I took same set of pics for all of them. I was challenged by Bryan bp2626, very avid Soviet stuff collector back then. He also was not comfortable with star, but fine with rifle. So I took several more pics of the stock. All of this is posted on GB thread I referred earlier. You see, unlike you, Bryan did not think rifle is refurbished, he thought star is faked. And only stock and star were topic of discussion. You also have to understand that non refurb rifles are common in Canada and back in 2014 and 2015 they were dirt cheap. Most of traders here don't bother to make decent pictures at all. I know it's different down the border with your prices.

Wow! you've really got your sales pitch nailed down tight. And an excuse for everything, but exactly zero proof of any matching serials on tube and piston.


What did bp2626 say about the piston and tube when you sent him photos of the matching EP serials? Because, just as in this thread, the gunboards thread had exactly ZERO photos of the piston and gas tube serials. Coincidence? Hmmmm.



Like the church lady says: " How convenient."

If you cant produce every matching serial on the rifle, then there's no way you can claim it's an all matching or all original carbine.

That's just facts.

Very very shady dealings. I bet you sold it for a nice premium.

 

[jaroslav]

Finally a longtime overdue discussion on SKS. Always something new to learn.

 

[Boris Badinov]

He really isn’t into this for profit, he is a very advanced collector and in this for the passion.

Yeah, but he sold every one of the Soviet SKS that he had. And I guarantee he sold this particular rifle for a very nice profit specifically because he touted is as ALL MATCHING, all original, and non refurb.

Also, we know for a fact that he sold this particular 1958 K-series rifle as an ALL MATCHING, all original, non-refurb without any idea if it actually was ALL MATCHING.

That's what most call shady dealing.

Maybe Horilka would be willing contact the person he sold it to and ask them to take pictures of the piston and tube serials, but I won't hold my breath. Or perhaps the person he sold it to posted it on this or some other website and we'll be able to find out once and for all from that person. Because I guarantee that Horilka has absolutely NO idea if the rifle is all matching or not.




In the US there's a special place for that kind of seller. It's called Armslist.

 

[pcvando]

Yeah, but he sold every one of the Soviet SKS that he had. And I guarantee he sold this particular rifle for a very nice profit specifically because he touted is as ALL MATCHING, all original, and non refurb.

Also, we know for a fact that he sold this particular 1958 K-series rifle as an ALL MATCHING, all original, non-refurb without any idea if it actually was ALL MATCHING.

That's what most call shady dealing.

Maybe Horilka would be willing contact the person he sold it to and ask them to take pictures of the piston and tube serials, but I won't hold my breath. Or perhaps the person he sold it to posted it on this or some other website and we'll be able to find out once and for all from that person. Because I guarantee that Horilka has absolutely NO idea if the rifle is all matching or not.




In the US there's a special place for that kind of seller. It's called Armslist.

He didn’t have a reason to believe it was a refurb, and we still don’t know.

Btw, many big stores and even chain retailers such as Bass Pro and Cabela’s have sold “non refurbished” SKS rifles and they were blantantly and clearly refurbs - I’m not sure if they even really knew.

Many misconceptions and falsehoods are spread within the collecting community, and it’s always why I encourage people to do tons of research. Every serious collector should have more books and reference material than rifles.

I highly doubt Horilka ripped anyone off, and he’s an honest collector. The problem is a lot of you guys in the USA don’t have access to these Soviet or Chinese firearms en mass like we do, and we see A LOT more than you have access to. What you consider truths down there wouls likely be disproven if you had access to what we do - the thing is, the Canadian collecting community doesn’t care as a whole. Much fewer of us than you.

I’ve been told more bull#### at gun shows and by so called “experts” than I could ever dream up, and many people believe this stuff. Me trying to explain anything to anyone is futile, because in their eyes I’m an idiot.

“Early SVT’s had 4 port breaks, SKS were originally all laminate, Italian Carcanos are not accurate, My K98k is matching, French guns were dropped once and never fired, my Mosin Sniper was used by Vasili himself, Mosin is garbage rod, my gun is original, nonnrefurb, matching, etc etc.”

I can’t fix stupid, and those who won’t listen.

 

[Boris Badinov]

Regarding US access to Soviet and Chinese sks-- What Canadian collectors incorrectly assume is that US access is limited because the import bans. But what you forget to take into account is that US has been the largest first world civilian market for firearms for over a hundred years. It's kind of a thing here in the US, that is unlike anywhere else in the first world. Perhaps you've heard about it.

For this reason, in the decade of virtually unrestricted pre-ban imports from the russia, the former Soviet bloc, and china -- the US importers received unbelieveably massive shipments and quantities of surplus firearms that Canadian importers and collectors have no way, or frame of reference to fully comprehend.

It's very likely that still to this day there are more Soviet and Chinese sks's in the US than there are currently in Canada. It is true that Canada has had a steady , uninterrupted trickle of imports for several deacades. But theUS got the virtual, ten year biblical flood.
...

Also, you're giving Horilka too much credit. If he knows as much about the sks as he claims, then photos of the tube and piston serials would have been automatic.

The two conclusions are:
1.) He doesnt know anywhere near as much about the sks as he says he does;
or
2.) He does know, and he intentionally omitted the tube and piston serials because he knows they werent matching. And then he knowingly sold the carbine on fraudulent claims

You seem to support the notion that he is a knowledgeable surplus collector, which means that the 2nd conclusion applies, and he sold the the rifle fraudulently advertising it as all matching, all original, and non refurb when he never actually proved this claim.

 

[pcvando]

^ Ok I give up. How did you reach only 2 conclusions?

Couldn’t there be more possibilities? Like... he forgot?

 

[Boris Badinov]

^ Ok I give up. How did you reach only 2 conclusions?

Couldn’t there be more possibilities? Like... he forgot?

No. Just the two options.

Because, you see, for four straight years now he has been passing this rifle off as: 1.) ALL matching, 2.) all original, 3) non-refurb

Yet, without the tube and piston serials, there is absolutely no way that any.of those three claims can be made.

Are you suggesting that for four straight years that he somehow just keeps forgetting to mention that he has no proof whatsoever for any of those claims?

Simply saying something is true doesn't actially make it true.
Without proof to verify any of the claims being made, it's just a four year long work of fiction.

Defend him all you want. But on the surface it's a blatant, willful lie.

Even if we were to discover tomorrow that the two parts do in fact match, it would still be a four year lie, because to this day he has no way to prove if the serials match or not. In fact, if we are to believe him, he never even bothered to check.

I think even modestly traveled sks collectors and enthusiasts on this forum have the same checklist to determine if an sks is all-matching/all-original/non-refurb. And I guarantee that if he or she knows even just a little, those two parts - piston and tube -- are like "go/no-go" gauges for proving or disproving such claims.

So, NO. He didnt forget.

 

[Horilka]

Wow, just wow Boris, you keep amazing me. I know US SKS collector life might revolve around single non-refurb sale/purchase, but not here in Canada. "The rifle" for you is "a rifle" for me. You're accusing me in selling refurb as non-refurb and hiding it for 4 year? Yeah, every morning I wake up and think - how do keep hiding it? Over the fours year I actually came up with several great ideas. First I posted rifle on GB and made additional pictures of stock. Then buyer inspected the rifle and issued positive feedback to me. Then couple of days ago to hide my hideous crime I published pictures again! That's how I hide! Am I evil? Yes, I am (c).

I notice you Boris like making conclusions and focusing on me instead of focusing on rifles or facts. And I honestly replied your question about why so few pictures. Now it's you turn, answer my question. You came here on the white horse backed up by "Dedicated, two decades long, research on the sks" of your forum and said this:

Original stocks were laminate on the 1957/ И letter rifles.

And then you run to your home forum for support, and support shows up but apparently he also believes that it's normal for D, I rifles and even happen in K! And you panic, you start checking your forum references and voila, it's not a secret on your forum and authentic factory original rifles in letters series with hardwood stocks were already published there.



No reply... panic grows... you open new topic to ask the same question... and again no answer...


So my question to you Boris. How come you came here claiming all your wisdom about SKSs, trying to teach Canadian collectors and then turns out don't know freaking basics about letter series, huh? Can you publicly admit here that you were wrong on subject of hardwood stocks in letter series or have you no balls for this?

 

[Loose-Cannon]

The star man... the star. This isn't about hardwood on 57, and 'possibly' early 58s. Its about how the tula star stamp on the letterguns was seemingly completely omitted from stocks as early as the transitional letter guns in 55. I find it hard the believe 3 years after the fact, ONE gun was designated special in some way that the entire format reverted, then reverted again to having no Tula star stamping of the stocks.

The evidence shows that stock was highly likely a replacement. Don't bash the messenger, because the burden of proving otherwise is now on you.

 

[Boris Badinov]

Wow, just wow Boris, you keep amazing me. I know US SKS collector life might revolve around single non-refurb sale/purchase, but not here in Canada. "The rifle" for you is "a rifle" for me. You're accusing me in selling refurb as non-refurb and hiding it for 4 year? Yeah, every morning I wake up and think - how do keep hiding it?

I doubt you've given it even one second of thought since you sold the rifle...

Over the fours year I actually came up with several great ideas. First I posted rifle on GB and made additional pictures of stock. Then buyer inspected the rifle and issued positive feedback to me. Then couple of days ago to hide my hideous crime I published pictures again! That's how I hide! Am I evil? Yes, I am (c).

And Still ZERO corroborating photos of the gas tube and piston. And zero proof of all matching/all originial/non-refurb. Given your self-proclaimed wealth of sks knowledge you have yet to explain how you had no idea that there are serials on the tube and piston.

So my question to you Boris. How come you came here claiming all your wisdom about SKSs, trying to teach Canadian collectors and then turns out don't know freaking basics about letter series, huh? Can you publicly admit here that you were wrong on subject of hardwood stocks in letter series or have you no balls for this?

To date I have seen exactly ZERO verifiable proof of an И or a K rifle that:
1) sits in a hardwood stock, and
2) bears no traits associated with refurbishment.

All three rifles presented in this thread have traits associated with either refurbishment or non-original condition. RM has said that he thinks he has seen a potentially "verifiable" И-series carbine in a hardwood stock, but he has yet to acknowledge this as certain. He has yet to get back to me with the data he has archived. Undoubtedly, my first question for him will regard the status of the EP serials on the gas tubes and piston shafts.

As it stands, I have seen numerous letter series rifles in hardwood stocks with varying indications of refurbishment. But I have yet to see one such rifle that bears 100% of the traits associated with original, all matching, non-refrubed condition. Sorry, but your rifle doesnt fit the bill.


....


A particularly odd facet of your argument is the fact that you have yet to state whether or not you were even aware of the EP serials on original issue SKS45 carbines. But given your self-proclaimed sks expertise, one can only assume that you must have known this fact about the sks45.
And we now know that you had doubts early on -- as did others-- about this rifle when you got it in 2015 (as your gunboards post demonstrates), yet somehow you couldn't even be bothered to corroborate your own all-matching/all original claims with one simple photo of the gas tube and piston serials.


I will grant that it is entirely possible (though I still think unlikely) that there were anomolous И and K series rifles issued in hardwood stocks-- still waiting to see what RM's archives have to say-- but I have yet to see even one of them that is 100%. verifiably, original.

...

None of this, however, obviates the blatant fact that you sold your rifle as all-matching/all-orginal/non-refurb, when you never even bothered to check all the serials on the gas tube and piston. Either you didn't know enough about sks45's to check, or you checked and decided rather conveniently to forget to take pictures of them.

...


Getting back to my initial point regarding hardwood vs laminate. If there are hardwood И's and K's out there with 100% indication of all original condition....I encourage any and all to post the undeniable photographic evidence for everyone else to examine.

Barring such evidence, I have yet see nor has anyone produced evidence of one such hardwood example.

...

parting shot:

Either you knew about the ep serials on the tube and piston, and purposely chose not to photograph them-- suspicious
OR
You had no idea that there were serials on those parts, and therefore know far less about the sks45 than you claim to know.

In either scenario, you were dishonest up to the point of fraudulent sales practice

 

[Horilka]

The star man... the star. This isn't about hardwood on 57, and 'possibly' early 58s. Its about how the tula star stamp on the letterguns was seemingly completely omitted from stocks as early as the transitional letter guns in 55. I find it hard the believe 3 years after the fact, ONE gun was designated special in some way that the entire format reverted, then reverted again to having no Tula star stamping of the stocks.

The evidence shows that stock was highly likely a replacement. Don't bash the messenger, because the burden of proving otherwise is now on you.

The star is uncommon, I agree, but not abnormal because you and me have different understanding how letter series production was done. So what? Your conclusions are different than mine. You have to prove your point as much as I have to prove mine. In my area of knowledge NOS stocks and even eralier parts are normal on letter-series, in your - not, not possible to re-use 3 yo NOS stock (I'm not saying it was the case, I can't know that for sure, maybe drunk Ivan put this along with serial and then got sober, I have drunk Ivan SVT-40 marked incorrectly as example), but yet in your world it's possible to transfer this NOS stock to refurb facility, keep it for 10 more years and still reuse it exactly in a way factory would do it and put factory RED coating, really?

Show me your factory original SKS and I will tell you "bud, your stock might as well be put on your rifle at refurb facility, they just used same dies for serial, same coating, but unless you prove it was done at factory I'll think of your rifle as of refurb". See my point?

 

[Boris Badinov]

The star is uncommon, I agree, but not abnormal because you and me have different understanding how letter series production was done. So what? Your conclusions are different than mine. You have to prove your point as much as I have to prove mine. In my area of knowledge NOS stocks and even eralier parts are normal on letter-series, in your - not, not possible to re-use 3 yo NOS stock (I'm not saying it was the case, I can't know that for sure, maybe drunk Ivan put this along with serial and then got sober, I have drunk Ivan SVT-40 marked incorrectly as example), but yet in your world it's possible to transfer this NOS stock to refurb facility, keep it for 10 more years and still reuse it exactly in a way factory would do it and put factory RED coating, really?

Show me your factory original SKS and I will tell you "bud, your stock might as well be put on your rifle at refurb facility, they just used same dies for serial, same coating, but unless you prove it was done at factory I'll think of your rifle as of refurb". See my point?

This is a great place to make the argument that "simply saying something is a fact, doesnt actually make it a fact"

The reason your Tula Star stock is such an obvious red flag is the fact that, other than yours, there are exactly ZERO examples of any such rifle. NOT in Canada and NOT in the US.

The reason that we can say that Laminate was the standard in 1957 and 1958 is the fact that there are a gazillion examples of verifiably original, all matching И a K series rifles in hardwood stocks.


Search it out for yourself. The majority of И and K series carbines you find will be in laminate stocks. And when you find them in hardwood stocks, you can be certain that there will be at least one questionable feature or various undeniable indications of refurbishment.

 

[Horilka]

All three rifles presented in this thread have traits associated with either refurbishment or non-original condition. RM has said that he thinks he has seen a potentially "verifiable" И-series carbine in a hardwood stock, but he has yet to acknowledge this as certain. He has

Reference to posts # and reason why each one is refurb? For rifle I posted the reason is star, correct (conclusions from what you see, not from what you assume i.e. no info on EPed numbers)?

Getting back to my initial point regarding hardwood vs laminate. If there are hardwood И's and K's out there with 100% indication of all original condition....I encourage any and all to post the undeniable photographic evidence for everyone else to examine.

This is gun owner forum, there are all kind of gun owners here and most of them are not collectors. If you think most Canadian SKS owners give a damn about originality and condition of their rifle you're delusional. Until this year it was a CAD$150-200 plinking or truck gun, except for few dozens collectors maybe. Sometimes ppl bring me SKS and ask - is it Russian or Chinese, that's the lever of knowledge (and nothing bad here, I don't discriminate and don't judge, they are knowledgeable in something else, something I have no idea about). So most of memebers here won't bother at all. You have some fine members from Canada on your forum, like Fenceline and others - ask them for pictures, otherwise you're barking at the wrong tree.

Either you knew about the ep serials on the tube and piston, and purposely chose not to photograph them-- suspicious
OR
You had no idea that there were serials on those parts, and therefore know far less about the sks45 than you claim to know.

In either scenario, you were dishonest up to the point of fraudulent sales practice

You really can't read, can you? Nobody, nobody on CGN consistently on regular basic makes more pics for milsurplus rifles than I do. Go to Equipment Exchange and see all SKSs for sale, how many of the ad would have better set of pics? And for $300 rifle I don't usually bother to take it apart and make all pics, I didn't not make bolt pics as well, haven't you noticed? I never make a pic of the bore, I provide description and ppl trust me. And thus my trading rating. Again, "a rifle" buddy, "a rifle", run of the mill, nothing special in Canada in 2014-2015.

The reason that we can say that Laminate was the standard in 1957 and 1958 is the fact that there are a gazillion examples of verifiably original, all matching И a K series rifles in hardwood stocks.

Search it out for yourself. The majority of И and K series carbines you find will be in laminate stocks. And when you find them in hardwood stocks, you can be certain that there will be at least one questionable feature or various undeniable indications of refurbishment.

Bullchit (about questioning harwood riflles) , you can say about your experience only, you have no idea how many SKSs I saw here in Canada. I agree that laminate is most common, but hardwood is norm on letters, it's not scarcity or rarity.

 

[Deathrawt]

I have a couple non refurb sks rifles and the N letter series one I have I thought had the star on the laminate stock but when I looked it doesn't. It only has the serial number so that's normal I guess
Doesn't mean the ruskies didn't put stars on any of them though you never know

As for the electro penciling on the gas tube and piston, it has those too but it has electro penciling on the butt plate and I think under the rear sight too? Never saw that before
I got the guns from lever arms when they were selling the non refurb ones
Darn things are franken pinned though