"Slam Fire": Just doesn't seem right.

Westward1 said:
A good operator with a pump gun can shoot fast enough pulling the trigger to make the slightly faster slam fire process irrelevant. And those shots will be aimed aimed and effective.
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I believe this, as I have seen it.

Cameron SS said:
Theres a theory that would make for a fun day at the range to test out.
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see my comment above.

the spank said:
I’ve seen a few close calls over the years on trap ranges when a shooter with no experience with model 12’s and little experience as a shooter period left smoking holes in the grass only inches from their toes while closing the pump handle to load the gun for their turn. I’ve shot my model 12’s a couple times to demonstrate the slam fire feature but for safety purposes only. I think it’s a very useless feature on a hunting or clay target shotgun to be honest and don’t miss the lack of it on the Browning reproductions.
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THIS is why I am on the fence on owning one of these.

As mentioned above, a selector switch would be nice. I had one on my FAL, and understand the process.

the ONLY time I could see an application for slam fire is in a "Defensive" situation (as I am not a criminal, I would NEVER have use of one for OFFENSIVE purposes) such as a home invasion (being in Sk, that is becoming a "Thing") or bear control in camp... up close and personal.

and as I think about it, they only position I would shoot from is with the butt tucked into my pit, or if I had a short grip on it, pulled tight into my torso for control.

I can't imagine being able to control it from a shoulder shooting position, as when I am shooting multiple rounds, the action is closed before the barrel comes back down.
 
Westward1 said:
A good operator with a pump gun can shoot fast enough pulling the trigger to make the slightly faster slam fire process irrelevant. And those shots will be aimed aimed and effective.
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This whole thread should be in the tactikid section IMO. The late and famous exhibition shooter Herb Parsons would break 7 hand thrown clays with a Model 12 Winchester. He broke all of these and records as well by pulling the trigger for each shot. Slam firing is a dangerous procedure even when intentional. I have a locker full of M12's and 97's and have tried this in my youth many times. From the shoulder one needs arms 4 feet long to hit anything and slam firing from the hip is just plain unsafe... not only bystanders by shooter alike. I have even witnessed a friend loose control of his shotgun completely to the result of having it laying in the mud behind him. I wish all the slam fire enthusiasts fun with this...
 
Brutus said:
Skip shot. If it's hiding behind car on pavement or concrete or in a hard wall cellar. Buckshot or birdshot can be bounced into the threat. No precision required.
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That is still an aimed shot, even if there is a bit of trigger trigonometry involved.

I am not a small guy but the recoil of a full house load (not the cheap and light target loads) is enough to make me have to concentrate on either the bead or front sight for the next shot. The recoil is a physical sign to me that it is time for a very rapid and forceful pump, and it takes nothing to relax one finger on my right hand to allow the recoil/pump to help the trigger reset.

Maybe I have my head up and locked but I think a better, safer, more effective process would be to have a SG that fits you and spend enough time shooting to have the process come almost naturally so you can focus your attention on acquiring the next target.
 
I only once tried emptying the gun’s three rounds by slamfiring and it was impossible to maintain muzzle control and that was with 3 dram 7 1/2 shot target loads and the gun shouldered and aiming at a specific target. I can only imagine how hard the muzzle would be to keep control of with a heavy load such as a 1.5 ounce magnum?! The target loads made the muzzle climb to the point the third round was completely off the board at 30 yards!! As I stated earlier, I can’t see a use for it.
 
Cameron SS said:
With utmost respect, unless you have a learning disability, you are wrong.

First, muscles don't get trained. Nerves/neurons get 'trained', and they get trained and re-trained over and over and over again. Your brain is continuously learning new things, and directing your neurons accordingly. I am quite confident that as an intelligent adult, you could learn to slam fire a shotgun in probably 10 seconds or less if you set your mind to it. Sure it would feel weird at first, like all new things do. Ever thrown a dart or a ball with your non dominate hand? Slam firing is kind of like that. But its really not that complicated, and when you appreciate how the firearm was designed to work, you will realize quite quickly that its as normal as firing a gun left handed.

Do you think you could ever manage to fire a full auto? Slam fire is basically the same trigger manipulation as a full auto, you just manually cycle the action.

The hardest part of slam firing is holding the proper point of aim while cycling, and re-orienting your expectations of when the firearm will fire from a trigger press with your dominant index finger to the end of forward motion of your non dominant hand on slide.

If you are right handed, firing a slam firing shot gun is kind of like throwing jabs with your left hand. Remember that this gun designed for fast, accurate-enough shooting, equally suited to duck hunting as it was to Close Quarter Battle. It is not a tool marksman.
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Guns like the 37 and M12 Winchester were NEVER designed too be shot "slam fire style", slam fire is a term that has come about in the last 30 years or so since thee cowboy action , three gun and other "spray and pray" games came into vogue.
The pump is designed to eject the shell and then load the next one when it is pushed forward. The trigger is used too fire the shell after tat, was never intended too be held down and thee pump used to fire the shell when the breach block comes into battery.

To attempt too compare a full auto to a pump by slam firing is ridiculous, because your left arm does not have too move when using a full auto, the pumps still being used manually and the battery systems are designed differently.
Cat
 
Personally only Ithaca attempted to bridge the gap between "slam fire," and a standard trigger.
The interuppted trigger has to be merely released then reset to work once again versus the standard trigger where the action must be worked again and the trigger released for a repeated firing sequence.
I do believe the interuppter trigger was first requested by the US Army, for the Ithaca, in or around 1963. The standard trigger for normal civilian production was initiated about 1975 at a letter request from the BATF. However thier was a myriad of parts to exhaust so a cut off date is virtually impossible to say a specific date slam fire shotguns were positively discontinued.

Keep in mind law enforcement and military contracts did not fall under this new BATF regulation. These agencies requested what they desired.

And if one is a student of history there are numerous examples of various Winchester or Ithaca shotguns being mishandled resulting in an idiot with negligent discharge. Quite possibly the John Dillinger incident was one such example probably covered up with a dishonest report. Most likely the newly armed FBI untrained in his Winchester shotgun. Also it was either an LAPD or LASD officer killed himself with negligent discharge middle 1970s. Once again, a law enforcement officer mishandling his equipment.
There was one CIA agent during the Vietnam War who discharged an Ithaca in a Bangkok.or Saigon embassy basement too. Thankfully he only killed the wall and his honor.

It seems the US military is a bit more competent in firearms training or they keep these negligent discharges on the hush. The most decorated SEAL , one CWO Watson utilized an M37 Ithaca for night ambushes and killed numerous NVA and VC with his shotgun in close range night engagements.

Know your equipment is the key here.
 
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Brutus said:
Personally only Ithaca attempted to bridge the gap between "slam fire," and a standard trigger.
The interuppted trigger has to be merely released then reset to work once again versus the standard trigger where the action must be worked again and the trigger released for a repeated firing sequence.
I do believe the interuppter trigger was first requested by the US Army in or around 1963.

And if one is a student of history there are numerous examples of various Winchester or Ithaca shotguns being mishandled resulting in an idiot with negligent discharge. Quite possibly the John Dillinger incident was one such example probably covered up with a dishonest report. Most likely the newly armed FBI untrained in his Winchester shotgun. Also it was either an LAPD or LASD officer killed himself with negligent discharge middle 1970s. Once again, a law enforcement officer mishandling his equipment.
There was one CIA agent during the Vietnam War who discharged an Ithaca in a Bangkok.or Saigon embassy basement too. Thankfully he only killed the wall and his honor.

It seems the US military is a bit more competent in firearms training or they keep these negligent discharges on the hush. The most decorated SEAL , one CWO Watson utilized an M37 Ithaca for night ambushes and killed numerous NVA and VC with his shotgun in close range night engagements.

Know your equipment is the key here.
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I won’t be taking mine to ‘nam anytime soon so I’ll just stick to pump, squeeze trigger, fire, repeat......
 
I think that most people will eventually get fired up to run a mag through the gun by holding the trigger back and pumping away. And they'll do it once because a) ammo isn't free and b) they're grownups.
 
If "it just seems wrong" but you can't explain why, then the issue is in your head. "Just seems" isn't rational but OTOH - CAS is a game and not a life and death situation. So if it isn't right for you then don't. Most of us have some mild neurosis and your's is slam firing M97 Winchesters. It could be worse, think of the poor bastards that go through life with more serious mental problems. Liberals for instance.

:)
 
You can slam fire any pump if you want to. Keep your finger fairly tight on the trigger as you slide the pump ahead, when the pump reaches end of travel it pulls the whole shotgun ahead against your trigger finger and the gun fires. It's not a true "slam fire" but it works out the same.
 
I have always agreed with this post from another. None of mine will ever be slam fired but I am OLD :)

The "slam fire" is not a "feature", it's caused by the lack of a disconnecter.
In the old days, a lot of firearms designers didn't include a disconnecter in shotguns.

While you "can" slam fire many older design shotguns, this is hard on the gun, NOT safe, and like "fanning" a single action, you'll hit nothing.
What it is, is a "COOL" thing to do at the range.
The other people who don't know any better and don't notice that you're not hitting anything will be impressed, the experienced shooters will have nothing but contempt for you.

"Slam firing" a shotgun is very much a "Hollywood" thing that looks great and deadly on the screen and is useless in the "real world".

As for the slam fire/disconnecter era in the Ithaca, the change over was in the early to mid-1970's. Sorry, I don't think anyone but Ithaca knows at what serial number the change was done at.
Ithaca is back in business, so you might ask them:
 
The normal production of 'slam fire' discontinued about 1975 at the request of BATF. Police and military contracts exempt from this legal request. Ithaca consumed normal parts until the 'slam fire' parts exhausted. They probably cannot even tell you when this deadline happened. Another wild card was Ithaca numerous chapter 11 and changing hands to others. Parts were just spare parts to be consumed. There are many uncatalogued (internal and external) safe to fire Ithacas with all kinds substitute parts just to get another factory gun out to the dealers before the next bankruptcy deadline.
 
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3macs1 said:
I have always agreed with this post from another. None of mine will ever be slam fired but I am OLD :)

The "slam fire" is not a "feature", it's caused by the lack of a disconnecter.
In the old days, a lot of firearms designers didn't include a disconnecter in shotguns.

While you "can" slam fire many older design shotguns, this is hard on the gun, NOT safe, and like "fanning" a single action, you'll hit nothing.
What it is, is a "COOL" thing to do at the range.
The other people who don't know any better and don't notice that you're not hitting anything will be impressed, the experienced shooters will have nothing but contempt for you.

"Slam firing" a shotgun is very much a "Hollywood" thing that looks great and deadly on the screen and is useless in the "real world".

As for the slam fire/disconnecter era in the Ithaca, the change over was in the early to mid-1970's. Sorry, I don't think anyone but Ithaca knows at what serial number the change was done at.
Ithaca is back in business, so you might ask them:
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100% and well said!
 
I have exotic tastes in handguns myself. Single shot 22 LR pistol designed for 50 meter bullseye. Also cap and ball revolvers, original and replica. This does not make me any more special than the fella next shooting table with his fine Glock 40. Too each, his own. In the eyes of government, we are all the vilified handgun shooter.
Act civilized at the gun range is my personal theme.

Have a good day.....
 
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