Slide Stop vs Slide Release

The only thing that is safe to say is that you don't know, what you don't know... :p

I'm perfectly fine not knowing the things you think I don't know.

What I know is based on courses I've taken, lots of timed drills on the range and from reading and practicing what I learn from SME's on this board (Tritium, Wicked Police, Kevin B., Slavex are very solid posters), and other SME on other boards (TG, LAV, Paul Gomez (RIP), etc)

It's good enough for me, I could care less if it's good enough for anyone else.
 
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If you bring your weak hand from the bottom of the mag you just seated, to the top of the slide, grip the slide and rack it back in 1/10 of a second or less, that is mighty impressive. I doubt many other people could do it in that time frame.

I don't think there are elitists saying your way is bad or it isn't best for you. Some people here have a pistol to stop a person who is trying to do them harm. They may feel that the most important thing is reloading and getting the pistol back on target in the shortest possible time. By your own admission, the slide release is faster, and that is why I use it.

There is no 1/2 or 1 second advantage to it. We're talking a tenth slower at best. As I said originally, by running the slide every time you reload, you are practicing multiple functions, not one. It may be a little slower on a reload, but knowing how to fix a malfunction without any thought, just a reaction is where time matters to me.

At the end of the day, I run my gun the way i like because it's right for me. I don't like arguing about which way is better or worse, but have a hard time not replying to elitist attitudes that say their way is best, when they are not informed on why others would do it differently.
 
By that logic anyone who is reloading should focus more on marksmanship than saving time during a reload.

You people have clearly missed the point. Racking the slide is a COMMON manual of arms. You do it when you load, reload and its the second half of your immediate action drill. The more you practice the better you will be. By racking the slide during reloads you are improving your manual of arms for executing an IA.

As for slide not returning to battery issues. That has nothing to do with using the slide over the slide lock. The SL only works if the last round has been fired and the SL is activated by a properly functioning magazine and isn't being ridden by the users thumb(s). The slide always chambers a round, its what its designed to do, whether the action sequence is done manually or automatically is of no bearing. Whether or not the magazine is functioning properly with regards to last round hold open is of no bearing. Whether or not there is a round chambered is of no bearing. Rack the slide you chamber a round.

You said it yourself that non ambi 1911's are difficult to use. Try running the slide lock on a sig left handed, they're near impossible right handed. Ever wonder why some slide locks are so small and their serrations stack like shingles? Its because they aren't to be used to release the slide, they're for manually locking the slide open.

Running the slide works on all autos for all shooters. Its also a common manual of arms. This equates to less time spent learning secondary operations. This means less to forget when under stress. This means you don't care what auto or what hand you shoot with as the method is the same. This means you can spend more time on what's important which is making hits. Using the slide vs slide lock is universal, anything else is specialized.

Tdc

While I have never been on a two way shooting range, I practice enough with my firearms to know what is going on with my firearm. I prefer to use my firearm as designed, rather than using a generalized procedure that may not be ideal for the firearm I am using.

With the 1911:

If the magazine does not catch the slide release the hammer will fall on an empty chamber. Pretty obvious what to do here, drop the magazine, insert a fresh one and rack the slide.

If the slide locks back on an empty magazine, drop the magazine, insert a fresh one, as you are bringing the gun onto target release the slide with the support hand as you get locked into your grip. Sights should be lined up on target, take your shot.

Yes, marksmanship should play a role here as well, if you have to rack the slide with your hand that is extra time that the sights are covered up and more time to stabilize before taking a shot. We're talking fractions of a second here but it does add up. The other point of marksmanship is this, if you are using your pistol for suppressing cover and you are wildly firing I think the situation is pretty well gone tits up. If you're using your pistol, you're only carrying one or your primary has let you down, in which case shouldn't every shot be taken carefully aimed to ensure the efficient use of ammunition?

The way the 1911 is designed and the placement of the slide release makes it far faster to use the slide release than to rack the slide. The ergonomics of the 1911 are surprisingly excellent for such an old design. If I could only take one, I'd take my 1911 over the P226. The 1911 is a personal device, something to get to know and intimate with. Feeding it with .45 ACP ball out of magazines loaded with 7 rounds will help ensure it stays up and running. The safety is the only part of the 1911 that needs to be ambi, everything else is very easy to deal with from left or right.

If a person practices enough, starting slow and building their speed gradually it is possible to learn a detailed manual of arms for each firearm and relatively quickly switch between them.
 
If you bring your weak hand from the bottom of the mag you just seated, to the top of the slide, grip the slide and rack it back in 1/10 of a second or less, that is mighty impressive. I doubt many other people could do it in that time frame.

I don't think there are elitists saying your way is bad or it isn't best for you. Some people here have a pistol to stop a person who is trying to do them harm. They may feel that the most important thing is reloading and getting the pistol back on target in the shortest possible time. By your own admission, the slide release is faster, and that is why I use it.




I don't have a weak hand :p

I am lucky enough to have been taught what I have by someone who needs a firearm as a weapon, and also teaches others how to use theirs more effectively.

Both methods work no doubt there. One is faster at one function, one is faster at multiple functions.

Most people here are saying that the slide release is faster, and anyone who disagrees must not worry about being effective with a pistol. That is elitist and closed-minded.
 
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Yes the slide release works every time, if the slide is open.
You may very well be a better man than me, and fix problems without pause, but I know myself that even when the slide runs forward by itself I look at it for a moment instead of shooting because I'm used to telling it to go forward, not it doing it on its own.

I'm talking about shooting under stress here. Shooting and moving with your heart beating out of your chest, not standing at a bench plinking away. This is when your caveman brain kicks in. The less options you give yourself, the faster you make a decision on how to fix something.

If you forget your manual of arms, you haven't trained enough as far as I'm concerned. In other fields you get all your training to prepare you for the worst case so you react properly at the right time. Why train yourself dumbed down? If you know your firearm well enough, it will tell you what it needs.
 
While I have never been on a two way shooting range, .

If a person practices enough, starting slow and building their speed gradually it is possible to learn a detailed manual of arms for each firearm and relatively quickly switch between them.

See, this is where the flaws come out.

When you are on a 2 way range, things fall apart. Caveman brain takes over. Having many options in your brain creates a loop where you redo the same action over and over despite the fact that it isn't working.

Until you experience this first hand, what I just typed might as well be in greek...
 
If you forget your manual of arms, you haven't trained enough as far as I'm concerned. In other fields you get all your training to prepare you for the worst case so you react properly at the right time. Why train yourself dumbed down? If you know your firearm well enough, it will tell you what it needs.

I'm not talking about forgetting how to run a pistol. I'm talking about having 1 option as a solution for multiple problems.

If this sounds interesting to you, research the OODA Loop. It is very informative.
 
See, this is where the flaws come out.

When you are on a 2 way range, things fall apart. Caveman brain takes over. Having many options in your brain creates a loop where you redo the same action over and over despite the fact that it isn't working.

Until you experience this first hand, what I just typed might as well be in greek...

I've been in a few life or death situations, none of them involving firearms but they did involve making the right decision to get out alive. Training is part of that, if you're not sufficiently trained or don't have the mental capacity you're going to make the wrong choice.

I would rather be familiar with my firearm and use it the most efficiently. Training is about making the motion instinctive so you don't have to think about it, the contents of that training can be complex or simple but the human being is very capable under stress.
 
I get the benefits of not using the slide release as a life-and-death combat training tactic, and relying on racking the slide instead. I even get that theoretically I should train for the practicality of it. But the reality is that I own handguns to target shoot and play IPSC. I don't carry one with me and I don't get into gunfights. For those that do, I understand the argument. And I even get that maybe, just maybe, I might get into a gunfight some day and it might cost me a second of hesitation (under the right circumstances) to rely on the slide release. But racking the slide is just plain slower than using the slide release button, and tenths of a second matter in the IPSC game. There are malfunctions in IPSC and I rack the slide to clear them, but on those occasions when I run the gun dry and have to reload from slide lock, I use the slide release. It's faster. That's my choice; in those specific circumstances.
 
I generally run the slide with my support hand for almost every action, but I use the slide stop/release depending on the situation and/or circumstances at hand.
 
Yes the slide release works every time, if the slide is open.
You may very well be a better man than me, and fix problems without pause, but I know myself that even when the slide runs forward by itself I look at it for a moment instead of shooting because I'm used to telling it to go forward, not it doing it on its own.

I'm talking about shooting under stress here. Shooting and moving with your heart beating out of your chest, not standing at a bench plinking away. This is when your caveman brain kicks in. The less options you give yourself, the faster you make a decision on how to fix something.

These are valid points but my question is how well do you shoot when your gun goes off out of battery when the primer on the new round hits the ejector. For those in the military who, by their occupation must take risks I can understand if their training takes them in the direction of throwing their hand over the slide to effect the release but for the life of me I fail to see the attraction for recreational shooters (3 Gun, IDPA,IPSC). I just came off SOing over a hundred shooters and at least a third of them use the method to unload and show clear and all covered the ejection port with their palm of their hand, with some actually grabbing the round as it was ejected. Having seen the effect of two instances of 9MM guns going off due to the primer hitting the ejection port in the last year I just fail to see the attraction in using the method. Its slower and potentially dangerous both for the shooter and the SO.

For those who insist, do the RO/SO a favour and hold the gun away from his face when you do it. We don't need our face filled with brass anymore than you need your palm filled.

Take Care

Bob
ps I mention the 9MM but from what I hear from friends in the US the .40cal is even more prone to this type of accident.
 
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These are valid points but my question is how well do you shoot when your gun goes off out of battery when the primer on the new round hits the extractor. For those in the military who, by their occupation must take risks I can understand if their training takes them in the direction of throwing their hand over the slide to effect the release but for the life of me I fail to see the attraction for recreational shooters (3 Gun, IDPA,IPSC). I just came off SOing over a hundred shooters and at least a third of them use the method to unload and show clear and all covered the ejection port with their palm of their hand, with some actually grabbing the round as it was ejected. Having seen the effect of two instances of 9MM guns going off due to the primer hitting the ejection port in the last year I just fail to see the attraction in using the method. Its slower and potentially dangerous both for the shooter and the SO.

For those who insist, do the RO/SO a favour and hold the gun away from his face when you do it. We don't need our face filled with brass anymore than you need your palm filled.

Take Care

Bob
ps I mention the 9MM but from what I hear from friends in the US the .40cal is even more prone to this type of accident.

Seeing as hoiw the extractor contacts the rebated rim and comes nowhere near the primer I see no issue. The live round is loaded under the extractor not over the extractor as well. The ejector impacts the opposite side if the case head as the extractor and a forward moving slide means zero chance of it striking the primer. In addition, cased cartridge ammunition is near harmless when detonated outside the chamber. The result is similar to a firecracker.

Tdc

Eta: the overhand method does not involve covering the e port. That is strictly a gamer move designed to save having to bend over and recover a round. I have to ask, of the out of battery detonations you've seen hiw many were reloads?
 
Eta: the overhand method does not involve covering the e port.

Really??

I've seen many guys covering the ejection port racking the slide using the overhand method. If you have big mitts or don't get your hand placement exactly where you want it,especially at speed, it's quite easy to do. If you have a round in the chamber and get a FTF and you tap rack, it's then easy to cause another stoppage with overhand rack, if you don't get your hand placement right.

Check out this video: You can clearly see this guy covering the E port when he racks the slide. And he has a pretty popular youtube channel and has trained with some "good" people....(wait for the slow motion replay at 5:30)

[Youtube]-p9JcQGyw2E[/Youtube]

It's also possible to get gloves caught in the e-port if you ride the slide with overhand rack method.
 
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Really??

I've seen many guys covering the ejection port racking the slide using the overhand method. If you have big mitts or don't get your hand placement exactly where you want it,especially at speed, it's quite easy to do. If you have a round in the chamber and get a FTF and you tap rack, it's then easy to cause another stoppage with overhand rack, if you don't get your hand placement right.

Check out this video: You can clearly see this guy covering the E port when he racks the slide. And he has a pretty popular youtube channel and has trained with some "good" people....(wait for the slow motion replay at 5:30)

[Youtube]-p9JcQGyw2E[/Youtube]

It's also possible to get gloves caught in the e-port if you ride the slide with overhand rack method.

As I said, covering the e port is incorrect. Large hands or not your pinky should be directly behind the chamber/ eport with the rest of your fingers grasping the slide. As for catching a glove, that too is poor technique. Riding the slide with any method is wrong. If you rack the slide hard enough it should slip from your grasp as you continue a rearward motion with your hand. Loading/cycling the slide should be done quickly and aggressively. Proper technique is why you train and practice which is what metcalfe had mentioned earlier.

Tdc
 
Seeing as hoiw the extractor contacts the rebated rim and comes nowhere near the primer I see no issue. The live round is loaded under the extractor not over the extractor as well. The ejector impacts the opposite side if the case head as the extractor and a forward moving slide means zero chance of it striking the primer. In addition, cased cartridge ammunition is near harmless when detonated outside the chamber. The result is similar to a firecracker.

Eta: the overhand method does not involve covering the e port. That is strictly a gamer move designed to save having to bend over and recover a round. I have to ask, of the out of battery detonations you've seen hiw many were reloads?


Relax TDC typo should read ejector

And it sure does happen. Forget the gamer crap, you tactical experts do it too and I have witnessed it and the more the stress, the more likely it will occur. Contrary to what you may have heard life isn't perfect even for the tactical experts and these incidents don't happen when everything goes right they happen when something goes wrong. As to your zero chance nonsense well it just ain't so my friend. I have seen the brass with a perfect square impact on the primer caused by the ejector. You just got to learn to stop dealing in absolutes. You are going to get run over by a train one day and think , "This just can't happen".

Bob
 
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Relax TDC typo should read ejector

And it sure does happen. Forget the gamer crap, you tactical experts do it too and I have witnessed it and the more the stress, the more likely it will occur. Contrary to what you may have heard life isn't perfect even for the tactical experts and these incidents don't happen when everything goes right they happen when something goes wrong. As to your zero chance nonsense well it just ain't so my friend. I have seen the brass with a perfect square impact on the primer caused by the ejector. You just got to learn to stop dealing in absolutes. You are going to get run over by a train one day and think , "This just can't happen".

Bob

The ejector causing a detonation is only possible on extraction of a live chambered round. Not possible when feeding a round.

As for mistakes, yes we all make them. The point behind a simplified and universal manual of arms is to reduce the potential for mistakes. This takes training and practice. I'm very well aware of what and how stress plays a role when it comes to shooting. Most here who've never trained nor competed clearly do not. Most shoot slow fire from the line at a stationary target without a time restraint. None of which has any validity when discussing stress involved shooting.

I doubt I will get run over by a train Bob. I understand that trains absolutely must run on the tracks and I therefore choose to stay away from them.

Tdc
 
The ejector causing a detonation is only possible on extraction of a live chambered round. Not possible when feeding a round.


Tdc

Like when you are unloading your gun for instance or when you inadvertently knock the round off the ejector while loading from slide lock, round angles sideways and primer hits the ejector. It happens TDC.

I know it looks cool especially when you immediately draw the gun back into your chest and scan. I did like the finger thumb racking of the slide in the above video. Just takes "cool" to another level.

If I was in the Miliitary or a LEO in Detroit I might join the crowd but I am not and as a civilian in the Canadian context I'll do my best not to harm myself playing IDPA/IPSC with my toys. Your life horizon is longer than mine so you may witness the SHTF scenarios, I don't see it happening 20 years out and beyond that I likely wouldn't know it was happening anyway. LOL If I am wrong well I guess I'll just have to rely on the Wicked Police types to keep the peace. I know that is a sheep attitude but it is the best I can do.

Take Care

Bob
 
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