Smith and Wesson M&P VS Glock

M&P

  • Smith and Wesson M&P

    Votes: 271 51.5%

  • Glock

    Votes: 255 48.5%
  • Total voters
    526
Canuck44 said:
TDC like a lot of your posts you make the reader dumber. First IPSC like IDPA insist on the ranges being cold ranges for sanctioned events, that is guns must be unloaded. If you don't like it to bad. As to the mag disconnect, you aren't a LEO and the mag disconnect in the US has been credited with saving officers lives. That is why some departments insist on their officers carrying guns with a mag disconnect. You don't like it to bad. S&W is in the business of selling firearms and the LEO market is huge compared to the couch commando crowd.

The reason we require shooters to show clear is we want to be certain the gun is indeed empty. Again you don't like it tough. IDPA isn't about to change their requirement that Sanctioned matches be run as cold ranges and I suspect neither is IPSC. I suspect there are a lot of shooting clubs with similar rules regarding their ranges be run as cold ranges. It is a safety concern. Come to our range to shoot IDPA you will follow the rules or you won't be on the property with your gun.

Take Care

Bob
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Bob,

You make some interesting statements. If both IDPA and IPSC run cold ranges, why are there so many cases of ND's in the SAFE HANDLING AREA during matches? I know of three cases from fellow shooters regarding ND's. More rules and regs won't solve stupid. Poor handling skills and a failure to adhere to the fundamental four are what cause ND's not loaded firearms.

I am well aware of IDPA/IPSC rules requiring cold ranges. I'm debating their purpose, which is evident is designed for low frequency single digit IQ mouth breathing types who can't function a firearm safely without a personal coach.

Again, ALL FIREARMS ARE LOADED AT ALL TIMES is one of the fundamental four rules required for safe handling. If this rule is followed it makes no difference whether the firearm is loaded or not. Its ignorant handling that causes ND's. Of the six courses I've taken, all were run with hot ranges and what do you know, not one student had an ND. With experience ranging from nearly new to shooting to experienced MIL/LE I don't see how a cold range would have made a difference.

As for mag disconnects(disco) they are a solution to a problem that is founded in the individual. If you feel you are about to be gun grabbed, its time to use your firearm. Failing to guard your firearm or firearm side is a training issue not an equipment issue. If you have time to reach the pistol and eject the magazine, why not draw it?? I believe Constable Strongquil(SP?) in Saskatchewan was a casualty due to his pistol having a disco. What happens if you dump your mag, fight off the subject and retrieve your gun. Do you believe you'll have the memory capacity or mindset to remember to insert a magazine before neutralizing any threats?

The disco is a marketing gimmick designed and promoted by careless actions. Seeing how disco's are not common place amongst the manufacters' or the current slew of issued pistols(aside from S&W). One can only conclude that they are neither requested or necessary. The disco may be credited with saving lives, but improved situational awareness and superior shooting skills have saved many more.

TDC
 
TDC said:
Bob,

You make some interesting statements. If both IDPA and IPSC run cold ranges, why are there so many cases of ND's in the SAFE HANDLING AREA during matches? I know of three cases from fellow shooters regarding ND's. More rules and regs won't solve stupid. Poor handling skills and a failure to adhere to the fundamental four are what cause ND's not loaded firearms.

And you read that where?

I am well aware of IDPA/IPSC rules requiring cold ranges. I'm debating their purpose, which is evident is designed for low frequency single digit IQ mouth breathing types who can't function a firearm safely without a personal coach.

To debate the issue as tio why is to include yourself with thr single digit IQ types who stand down range beside targets to get hear bullets whizzing by or take videos downrange of the shooting line. Ever been there or seen that?

Again, ALL FIREARMS ARE LOADED AT ALL TIMES is one of the fundamental four rules required for safe handling. If this rule is followed it makes no difference whether the firearm is loaded or not. Its ignorant handling that causes ND's. Of the six courses I've taken, all were run with hot ranges and what do you know, not one student had an ND. With experience ranging from nearly new to shooting to experienced MIL/LE I don't see how a cold range would have made a difference.

Bad things happen at very untimely moments. I'll chalk your opinion up to your youthful inexperience. You may learn one day that sometimes bad things happen. The idea is to reduce the odds of them happening.

As for mag disconnects(disco) they are a solution to a problem that is founded in the individual. If you feel you are about to be gun grabbed, its time to use your firearm. Failing to guard your firearm or firearm side is a training issue not an equipment issue. If you have time to reach the pistol and eject the magazine, why not draw it?? I believe Constable Strongquil(SP?) in Saskatchewan was a casualty due to his pistol having a disco. What happens if you dump your mag, fight off the subject and retrieve your gun. Do you believe you'll have the memory capacity or mindset to remember to insert a magazine before neutralizing any threats?

I know in your perfect world all goes to plan and life is like a waltz, left foot slide left foot slide. Well TDC life isn't and sometimes even the likes of you will make a mistake despite having taken six courses and read tons of magazines. Sorry I am not privy to all the facts regarding the Constable and what caused his demise. I am sure those involved do.

The disco is a marketing gimmick designed and promoted by careless actions. Seeing how disco's are not common place amongst the manufacters' or the current slew of issued pistols(aside from S&W). One can only conclude that they are neither requested or necessary. The disco may be credited with saving lives, but improved situational awareness and superior shooting skills have saved many more.

You should have been a preacher. when you grow up TDC you may find even in your world there are grey areas. I recall when I was about 16 I just about knew everything, all was either right or wrong, black or white. As I matured I found things weren't all so black and white and I really didn't know very much at all. You in time may learn that as well. I often wonder what your take would be if the Glock came out with a mag disconnect? It sure would change a lot of instructors cue cards in a hurray.

TDC
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Thanks for the discussion TDC. You really do have to challenge some of your dogmas more because one day you are going to find yourself in a situation and say to yourself. "How did that happen?" When it does I hope nobody gets hurt including you.

Take Care

Bob
 
TDC said:
...The disco is a marketing gimmick designed and promoted by careless actions. Seeing how disco's are not common place amongst the manufacters' or the current slew of issued pistols(aside from S&W). One can only conclude that they are neither requested or necessary. The disco may be credited with saving lives, but improved situational awareness and superior shooting skills have saved many more...
Click to expand...

x2

And one more turd for thought...

One might suppose that, because most Mounties are armed with pistols featuring the magazine disconnector "safety", the RCMP leadership sincerely subscribed to the saving officers lives theory (rather than the lack-of-training) theory.

But there is the fact that some Mounties are not so-equipped.

(Does the RCMP care less about their lives? No, of course not.)

Those special members just happen to train, and qualify, monthly.
 
Wendell said:
A magazine disconnect is a pain in the ass because of the if clear, hammer down holster command. The intent is to safely discharge any chambered cartridge then (rather than later). To drop the striker you must insert a magazine. This means that, after the if clear, hammer down holster command, you must insert a magazine before pulling the trigger (to drop the striker).

IPSC will permit you to use the M&P without the magazine disconnect. If the M&P that you bought has this unwanted "feature", you are free to remove it without breaking any IPSC rules.
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I'm not aware of any rules that allows for the removal of the magazine safety. People will just keep an empty magazine in their back pocket and place it into the magwell on the "hammer down" order. Not that big a deal, annoying, but not worth using a different pistol if you like this one.

However, S&W does have a version of the mp9 that doesn't have a magazine safety for just this purpose.
 
Glock! #####es!

This is at about 20-25 feet. My first real time trying to shoot well, and see just how accurate this gun is. At 50 feet I am grouping well but slightly left. Just me though. This was the second group of 5, the first had a flyer.

IMG00052-20091102-1427.jpg
 
mlehtovaara said:
Glock! #####es!

This is at about 20-25 feet. My first real time trying to shoot well, and see just how accurate this gun is. At 50 feet I am grouping well but slightly left. Just me though. This was the second group of 5, the first had a flyer.

IMG00052-20091102-1427.jpg
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That must be a doctored photo. There's no way a Glock with its unsafe system, poor trigger, crappy sights, plastic frame and low price point could produce results like that.:cool:

Good shooting.

TDC
 
Canuck44 said:
Thanks for the discussion TDC. You really do have to challenge some of your dogmas more because one day you are going to find yourself in a situation and say to yourself. "How did that happen?" When it does I hope nobody gets hurt including you.

Take Care

Bob
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You really believe you're something special don't you Bob. The cases I referred to were word of mouth from other ISPC competitors. Why they would fabricate such a story is beyond me. In one case I talked with the guy that shot himself in the leg with his 38 super race gun in the safe handling area. Something that can't happen as ammo is not permitted in the safe handling area:rolleyes:

You still can't see the forest for all the trees. When the fundamental four are followed it is impossible to shoot something or someone you do not intend to. Manual safeties are engaged and disengaged by the operator upon drawing or re-holstering of the firearm. Seeing how the manual safety is disengaged upon drawing, there is no longer a benefit to the device. With firearm in hand and safety disengaged, one pistol is no more or less safe than another. Be it a DA revolver, DA/SA auto or an SA auto. Safety off in the hands of the operator is still safety off in the hands of the operator. What changes is how the operator operates the pistol. ND's are caused by the operator not the equipment.

Its ok if you don't have the confidence or skill to carry a hot firearm, that's your choice. For those of us who do, we'll stick to the fundamental four and carry on with life. Oddly, millions of MIL/LE and private citizens do just that around the globe everyday without issue.

As for being down range with live fire. Again, its ok if your "sport" doesn't condone or promote such progressive actions. Then again, your "sport" isn't accustomed to teaching real world practical skills despite its defensive roots. For those who are willing to risk their safety(yes there is an inherent risk involved, as there is with any activity) with others whom they trust such actions are part of evolving ones skills. Many a soldier and some LE engage in such actions daily. In fact, the last I heard the SAS trains with live ammo exclusively. Are you going to say they're reckless and unprofessional?? I guess they wouldn't be permitted to compete with such high calibre shooters such as yourself.

TDC
 
TDC said:
For those who are willing to risk their safety(yes there is an inherent risk involved, as there is with any activity) with others whom they trust such actions are part of evolving ones skills. Many a soldier and some LE engage in such actions daily. In fact, the last I heard the SAS trains with live ammo exclusively. Are you going to say they're reckless and unprofessional?? I guess they wouldn't be permitted to compete with such high calibre shooters such as yourself.

TDC
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Well TDC you aren't any of the above and for the comfort of those of us who know that you will be restrictedt to cold carry at IDPA Sanctioned Events and most certainly at our range.

I am sorry but my life experiences tell me that when someone is so certain of their skills as to be beyond question then they are often the most likely to cause an accident. You are a prime case in point.

Take Care

Bob
 
I agree with your last statement Canuck 44 but at the same time, we allow police oficers to carry loaded guns, so why can we not trust recreational users, who should be even more cautious. I don't believe that a cold range is really any safer then a hot one. At my club we don't use safeties because depending on them would be asking for problems. So if someone is walking around in a cold range assuming all guns are not loaded (which is the direct opposite of what they should assume) then we might have more chances of accidental discharge. The problem here would be newbies, and people that have not been handling guns for much time. This is why a cold range to me offers some benefit. An official makes sure your gun is not loaded, and then you holster it. This makes sense, and I don't see the issue as long as we are still treating guns as if they are loaded regardless.
 
"England expects that every man will do his duty" - Lord Nelson

Canuck44 said:
Well TDC you aren't any of the above and for the comfort of those of us who know that you will be restrictedt to cold carry at IDPA Sanctioned Events and most certainly at our range.

I am sorry but my life experiences tell me that when someone is so certain of their skills as to be beyond question then they are often the most likely to cause an accident. You are a prime case in point.

Take Care

Bob
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http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/cont/report_signaler-eng.htm
 
mlehtovaara said:
I agree with your last statement Canuck 44 but at the same time, we allow police oficers to carry loaded guns, so why can we not trust recreational users, who should be even more cautious. I don't believe that a cold range is really any safer then a hot one. At my club we don't use safeties because depending on them would be asking for problems. So if someone is walking around in a cold range assuming all guns are not loaded (which is the direct opposite of what they should assume) then we might have more chances of accidental discharge. The problem here would be newbies, and people that have not been handling guns for much time. This is why a cold range to me offers some benefit. An official makes sure your gun is not loaded, and then you holster it. This makes sense, and I don't see the issue as long as we are still treating guns as if they are loaded regardless.
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You have it exactly correct. It is no aboslute safe guard it just reduces the odds of something bad happening. I see no comfort in quoting some gun rule over an injured person. In a perfect world nothing would ever go wrong but we don't live in such a world and sometimes bad things happen.

As to the Police Officers carrying loaded weapons while on duty you are into a completely and unrelated topic. When officers and armed forces personnel shoot at our IDPA events they carry cold just like the rest of the shooters. I can say from personal experience, having shot with some of the best trained personnel in our armed forces and police departmens that none of them object to the rule and willing go along, with the full understanding why.

I don't recall amyone assuming anything about a gun being loaded or unloaded. The rule at IDPA Sanctioned events is the range must be cold during the event. Anyone found with a loaded weapon outside the control of a Safety Officer is DQ'd and sent home. Simple. We always assume a gun is loaded when handling our weapons but again that isn't the issue. All a cold range rule does is reduce the possiblity of somone getting inured by an AD. Nothing more nothing less.

Take Care

Bob
 
Wendell said:
x2

And one more turd for thought...

One might suppose that, because most Mounties are armed with pistols featuring the magazine disconnector "safety", the RCMP leadership sincerely subscribed to the saving officers lives theory (rather than the lack-of-training) theory.

But there is the fact that some Mounties are not so-equipped.

(Does the RCMP care less about their lives? No, of course not.)

Those special members just happen to train, and qualify, monthly.
Click to expand...


Have you not considered the magazine disconect is more for if an officer is in a fight they can drop their mag which may buy them the extra second they need should they become disarmed?

I think that is more the reason for a few Police departments opting for mag disconects. Remember there is alot more to take into account with policing than just shooting.
 
Canuck44 said:
Well TDC you aren't any of the above and for the comfort of those of us who know that you will be restrictedt to cold carry at IDPA Sanctioned Events and most certainly at our range.

I am sorry but my life experiences tell me that when someone is so certain of their skills as to be beyond question then they are often the most likely to cause an accident. You are a prime case in point.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Your lack of rebuttals tells me you either have no evidence to support your side of the debate or clearly don't understand what is being discussed. Let me break that down into simpler terms. Can you debate my previous statements or not?

TDC
 
Canuck44 said:
You have it exactly correct. It is no aboslute safe guard it just reduces the odds of something bad happening. I see no comfort in quoting some gun rule over an injured person. In a perfect world nothing would ever go wrong but we don't live in such a world and sometimes bad things happen.

As to the Police Officers carrying loaded weapons while on duty you are into a completely and unrelated topic. When officers and armed forces personnel shoot at our IDPA events they carry cold just like the rest of the shooters. I can say from personal experience, having shot with some of the best trained personnel in our armed forces and police departmens that none of them object to the rule and willing go along, with the full understanding why.

I don't recall amyone assuming anything about a gun being loaded or unloaded. The rule at IDPA Sanctioned events is the range must be cold during the event. Anyone found with a loaded weapon outside the control of a Safety Officer is DQ'd and sent home. Simple. We always assume a gun is loaded when handling our weapons but again that isn't the issue. All a cold range rule does is reduce the possiblity of somone getting inured by an AD. Nothing more nothing less.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Again.... Running a cold range is a direct contradiction to the first fundamental rule, ALL FIREARMS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. Preaching and practicing two different mantras is bad for business. A cold range is impossible as all firearms are always loaded and thusly should be treated as such. Which according to you Bob is what all IDPA participants do. If that is indeed the case, why the need for unloaded firearms???

Cold ranges don't reduce the possibility of anything. AD's more accurately described as ND's occur only when the fundamentals are violated. That being said, if the individual in question admits to consciously deciding to fire then there is no violation of the fundamental four. Those willing to violate the fundamental four are likely the same individuals who will ignore a cold range rule or fail to use their manual safety. As was mentioned, manual safeties are supplemental to the fundamental four/mindset. If your fundamental four/mindset are not functioning I wouldn't count on either a manual safety or a cold range rule preventing anything.

AD's are a myth. Firearms don't accidentally discharge, they are either deliberately discharged or negligently discharged. The difference between the two is the conscious decision to fire made by the operator and is completely separate from the location, target, time, or distance involved.


Squirrley11 said:
Have you not considered the magazine disconect is more for if an officer is in a fight they can drop their mag which may buy them the extra second they need should they become disarmed?

I think that is more the reason for a few Police departments opting for mag disconects. Remember there is alot more to take into account with policing than just shooting.
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You need to read back in the thread. If an officer has time and access to the mag release, its time to deploy the pistol. S&W is the most prolific provider of firearms with discos. Agencies purchase S&W because they cater heavily to large contracts with killer pricing and service plans. The bean counters determine what gear is used, not the street level officer or training dept.

TDC
 
TDC said:
Agencies purchase S&W because they cater heavily to large contracts with killer pricing and service plans. The bean counters determine what gear is used, not the street level officer or training dept.
TDC
Click to expand...

Hence the considerable presence of Glock in the police market, the last contract price that I heard of from Glock was $187 per pistol.
 
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