Does anyone out there have smokeless data for the 41 Colt with either heeled or hollow base bullets? Especially slow burning powders like 2400, 5744, 4198 or SR 4759, this for an antique 1892 and SAA. Also 45 S&W Schofield, 44 Russian and 455/476. Thanks
Smokeless 41 Colt load data
- Thread starter 9634037
- Start date
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- High River, Alberta
I'm not really familiar with all those powders but most you list are high pressure or magnum powders that are not at all appropriate for reduced loads.
Personally I like unique even though it is a little dirty. For that cartridge my first choice would be FFg black powder. You can't get enough in the case to be dangerous to an old gun and it's not likely to blow out the skirt on the hollow base.
Personally I like unique even though it is a little dirty. For that cartridge my first choice would be FFg black powder. You can't get enough in the case to be dangerous to an old gun and it's not likely to blow out the skirt on the hollow base.
My old copy of Cartridges of the World shows loads for the .41 Long Colt using the 200 grain hollow base bullets of .387 diameter.
Bullseye load of 3.4 grains, Unique load of 4.5 grains gave velocity of 730 and 820 feet per second at the muzzle.
Bullseye load of 3.4 grains, Unique load of 4.5 grains gave velocity of 730 and 820 feet per second at the muzzle.
Have you considered Blackhorn209? Or TrailBoss?
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- High River, Alberta
The only substitute I've messed with is pyrodex and not lately. Some of the American forums might have more information. Castboolits or the ASSRA maybe.
I use 3Fg Triple7 in my 45 Colt, as the other black powder substitutes don't create enough pressure to obturate properly in my Marlin 1894 with it's large chamber.
I use BH209 in the other straight walled pistol cartridges. All with cast bullets.
Ive had alot of success using 3 grains of Trail boss for a French Model 1873 pistol made in 1875. With a 190 grain healed bullet. I dont have a chronograph but I would assume that the muzzle velocity would be around 650-750 fps. Trail boss works very well in the revolver and shows no pressure signs. For 41 colt I would use just enough so that the bullet sits on top of the powder with little compression and see how that is. Trail boss is a very common forgiving powder and is priced very well.
I use nothing but Unique for 41 LC...if you don't kick it in the *ss a bit...PL HB don't get that 'Bump' to go from 0.385 > .410 for good accuracy. IMO of course.
Dialed my loads way back for a Lady; like 3.9 for reduced recoil. Could see the odd flier even out of only 2 cylinders discharged.
Dialed my loads way back for a Lady; like 3.9 for reduced recoil. Could see the odd flier even out of only 2 cylinders discharged.
9634037,
Seems like you could be looking for a 41colt load with more pizzaz than it would typically carry, that you list powders like those.
Heeled bullets & black will probably top most any smokeless load that's ever been listed for the caliber, far as hitting power goes. With smokeless though, I've never even heard of anyone having success using 2400 or any of the others you list... 'coarse, not saying there isn't a load still to be devised. One gem of a powder I've found recently myself (using proper components in top quality single action army's anyway) is Power Pistol. I use a heeled old west 205gr bullet which has an important crimp groove on them for proper smokeless combustion. I'm also very particular with these power pistol loads to use new starline full length brass and special dies to crimp the heeled bullet securely. The full-length starline brass with a HEELED bullet allows maximum case capacity, and the new starline brass has more than some of the old stuff floating around out there, so its critical to pay attention to that ... but my 2 loads with those components match &/or top any historical 41colt load I've ever tried to date if done right (& if that's what a guys after) plus shoot great groups so long as the bore in your Colt is correct for the .403" diameter heeled bullet. I have one lighter, and one heavier load using power pistol & the heeled 205gr old west bullet.
My advice is slug your (SAA) Colts bore with a soft lead fishing weight lightly oiled, and measure that with a set of good calipers. See if it's in the realm of .401-.403" (then) if so, PM me. That old west 205gr heeled bullet will be the way to go. I'll pass-on some powder charges to try. One load through the Single Action I was testing them in chronographed 775fps and shot 1.5" cylinder after cylinder, and the other heavier load choronographed basically 900fps, shooting 1,1/4" groups one after the other.. @15 yards. I tried a few for the hell of it at 50 yards seeing how well those were shooting at close range and hit 3 for 3 on my plate for roughly the size of a folgers coffee can. I ran outta shells to try anything more, but I've never seen a 41colt load even able to hit a 2ft target at 50 before, let alone get a 3 for 3 group. I could hardly believe it. That will be my-own 41colt load from here on out, for sure.
Anyone reading this and interested though, understand I am using a strong heavy framed SAA with thick barrel protrusion inside the frame in front of the cylinder throats, vs what the army specials, thunderers or 1892's have. Plus which has thick walled cylinders compared to the other 41colt guns out there. I don't know 100% if the 900fps load would fall into standard pressure categories for the caliber, but don't believe it is far above (if it is). It may well be considered a slightly +P style load for the 41colt, if the caliber had such designation. Obsolescence and no current data being written on the 41colt makes it tough to draw concrete conclusions, so I don't advise these loads be worked toward in ANYTHING but best quality Single Action Army's in top condition, even better if in case they had a post-98 smokeless era cylinder installed for certainty* I would bet the smokeless ones could easily be loaded a good deal higher yet, in a modern steel cylinder, but how many of those are out there!? Not much 900fps & 200+grains can't do anyway... kill a bull if he was stuck in the mud, torn open by coyotes and you had to. Good enough for me.
Seems like you could be looking for a 41colt load with more pizzaz than it would typically carry, that you list powders like those.
Heeled bullets & black will probably top most any smokeless load that's ever been listed for the caliber, far as hitting power goes. With smokeless though, I've never even heard of anyone having success using 2400 or any of the others you list... 'coarse, not saying there isn't a load still to be devised. One gem of a powder I've found recently myself (using proper components in top quality single action army's anyway) is Power Pistol. I use a heeled old west 205gr bullet which has an important crimp groove on them for proper smokeless combustion. I'm also very particular with these power pistol loads to use new starline full length brass and special dies to crimp the heeled bullet securely. The full-length starline brass with a HEELED bullet allows maximum case capacity, and the new starline brass has more than some of the old stuff floating around out there, so its critical to pay attention to that ... but my 2 loads with those components match &/or top any historical 41colt load I've ever tried to date if done right (& if that's what a guys after) plus shoot great groups so long as the bore in your Colt is correct for the .403" diameter heeled bullet. I have one lighter, and one heavier load using power pistol & the heeled 205gr old west bullet.
My advice is slug your (SAA) Colts bore with a soft lead fishing weight lightly oiled, and measure that with a set of good calipers. See if it's in the realm of .401-.403" (then) if so, PM me. That old west 205gr heeled bullet will be the way to go. I'll pass-on some powder charges to try. One load through the Single Action I was testing them in chronographed 775fps and shot 1.5" cylinder after cylinder, and the other heavier load choronographed basically 900fps, shooting 1,1/4" groups one after the other.. @15 yards. I tried a few for the hell of it at 50 yards seeing how well those were shooting at close range and hit 3 for 3 on my plate for roughly the size of a folgers coffee can. I ran outta shells to try anything more, but I've never seen a 41colt load even able to hit a 2ft target at 50 before, let alone get a 3 for 3 group. I could hardly believe it. That will be my-own 41colt load from here on out, for sure.
Anyone reading this and interested though, understand I am using a strong heavy framed SAA with thick barrel protrusion inside the frame in front of the cylinder throats, vs what the army specials, thunderers or 1892's have. Plus which has thick walled cylinders compared to the other 41colt guns out there. I don't know 100% if the 900fps load would fall into standard pressure categories for the caliber, but don't believe it is far above (if it is). It may well be considered a slightly +P style load for the 41colt, if the caliber had such designation. Obsolescence and no current data being written on the 41colt makes it tough to draw concrete conclusions, so I don't advise these loads be worked toward in ANYTHING but best quality Single Action Army's in top condition, even better if in case they had a post-98 smokeless era cylinder installed for certainty* I would bet the smokeless ones could easily be loaded a good deal higher yet, in a modern steel cylinder, but how many of those are out there!? Not much 900fps & 200+grains can't do anyway... kill a bull if he was stuck in the mud, torn open by coyotes and you had to. Good enough for me.
I bought trail boss but haven't given it a try yet
Anyone else use it in an antique black powder frame gun?
I also have a smith and wesson model 1 1/2 second issue. I use ramset level 3 nail gun caps to fire it and it works really well and makes this little antique concealable handgun alot of fun
Thanks folks, I have Triple seven FFg and FFFg and, will try FFg first. I am reading about BH 209 and sounds like maybe a friendlier product , but would like some pressure data. May have to invest in the RSI Pressure Curve equipment.
Thanks Whiskeywillow , very good info. I have never heard of Power Pistol, who makes it? I"m not wanting to hotrod but would like 750-800 fps if I can get it without high pressure. I do have a heeled bullet mould coming from Accurate molds and I do have a a custom crimp die from Old west Bullet Moulds, and sizer .407 die from them also. Starline brass also(pricey stuff). I sure would like your load recipe if you'll share. There seems to be a poor source of load manuals out there, on the web. Do you know of any sources for these old calibers that give pressure readings?
Old West hollow based 195 gr bullet, pure lead...wax and olive oil lube ( I think). Over 4.5 grains of Unique gave 780 fps out of an '89 with a 5" bbl. Starline brass and CCI primer to hold it and light it.
Lively, and not as accurate is a lesser loading. But makes you chuckle and maybe grunt once...but discreetly of course.
Lively, and not as accurate is a lesser loading. But makes you chuckle and maybe grunt once...but discreetly of course.
That's pretty good Tok. I think velocities in 41colt (with smokeless) are tied to how snugly the bullet seats into the case, then equally as much by the degree of crimp a guy can put on the bullet. Kinda like rifle loading ... neck tension is more important than a person thinks. And in a caliber like this, more finicky too. I'm just about convinced that's why different guys chronograph numbers for the same loads all vary so bad for 41.
I got best results in my single actions with Unique at 5.0gr loading the hollowbase, and 5.5gr using the heeled.. but found about 4thou neck tension on the heeled bullet to be the most important factor to not wind up with squibs ... 4thou neck tension and the old west crimper pressing a crimp as hard as a guy can into the old blackpowder heeled design (which doesn't have a crimp groove) is what gave about the same accueacy as my Power Pistol loads shooting the old west heeled 205 that does have a crimp-G. BUT I still couldn't crack 800fps like the old manuals say it should, with Unique. One Colt SA I was testing with even has as perfect a barrel-cylinder gap as you could want, at 5,5-thou, lockup is dead solid perfect and it's got an even, smooth bore that slugs .401 pretty well dead nuts between all grooves... gun like that should shoot with any current factory shipped revolver today. So I know pressures and speeds aren't being lost because of tolerances in that-one particular Colt for sure. Or sure shouldn't be. I can't figure out how to get the published 880fps out of those Unique loads for the life of me.
Power Pistol though, with this old west heeled 205gr bullet I keep talking about with a good crimp groove, plus the +/-4thou neck tension, that's the ticket for a full house 41colt that is probably all of or more than what the long-cased blackpowder loads would have been back in the day.
OP, I'll get a PM sent first chance I can.. hang tight
Last edited:
