There is no advantage to using smokeless in antiques. I think most people are scared of black powder because of all the BS about it being corrosive. It will eat your brass if you don't clean it, but it won't pit your barrel. The powder fouling from Unique is actually about as hygroscopic as black powder fouling, and will rust your barrel faster than black. It takes only five minutes to clean a black powder cartridge rifle properly. A little longer for a muzzle loader. So why bother using smokeless in the first place? To each their own, but I certainly wouldn't encourage the practice.
Smokeless in Antiques
- Thread starter sportee
- Start date
There is a very large range of smokeless powders, so in this discussion we need to distinguish which smokeless powders we are talking about. For the same bullets, brass and ballistics, 5744 will always produce a lower pressure curve than BP and Unique will always produce a higher pressure curve than BP. The advantage of slower smokeless powders are two-fold. First, their lower pressure curves (for the same ballistics) are easier on my old guns and, second, I can go to the range and fire 50 rounds without any fouling at all. Some smokeless powders have such a low pressure curve, for the same ballistics, that the cast bullet won't even be obturated (bumped up). The big disadvantage of fast smokeless powders are the higher pressures, so I never use them. A person really needs to know the burning characteristics of the smokeless powders he uses. I see a lot of statements made about smokeless powders without any qualification as to which kind. They are not all created equal ..... not by a very long shot! I have reloaded, or am currently reloading for, 10 different BP cartridges. I've used BP in only two of them, but use smokeless in all of them and I've done so for many thousands of rounds for many years and never without any harm at all. But I do know which smokeless powders to use and what kind of ballistics to use with them. I've used smokeless powders in original Winchester 1873's, 1876's, 1886's, 1892's and 1894's, as well as original S&W 44 Russian and 45 Schofield top breaks. I always stay with original BP ballistics, and I always use powders that have a burning rate equal to or slower than 2400.
So says You!
I see plenty of Advantages.
I can get more POWER outa some of my Better strong Antique guns useing 2400 Smokeless like old Elmer and i have not hurt a hair on any of my guns I dont have my guns all covered in sticky Residue from fireing BP My Revolvers dont seize up from Fouling or get hard to cycle!
I can go put 50 + rounds thru my gun at the Range and come home without a rush to Clean it.
And my Wife dont get pissed at me for makeing a big Mess in the sink
I did give BP a good try in my Antique guns you guys can keep it.
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I've been working up a load got my Martini Henry only to find out that the smokeless I have is all too slow and won't even burn 100% even when I have enough powder to almost fill the case.
So I'm now looking at getting some IMR4227 or IMR4195 to play with.
I do have some pistol powders but they are all way too fast for a big BP case.
So I'm now looking at getting some IMR4227 or IMR4195 to play with.
I do have some pistol powders but they are all way too fast for a big BP case.
So says You!
I see plenty of Advantages.
I dont have my guns all covered in sticky Residue from fireing BP My Revolvers dont seize up from Fouling or get hard to cycle!
I can go put 50 + rounds thru my gun at the Range and come home without a rush to Clean it.
And my Wife dont get pissed at me for makeing a big Mess in the sink
I did give BP a good try in my Antique guns you guys can keep it.
My point exactly!
I can fire 50+ rounds of 40 grain loads through my .45 Colt with no binding whatsoever. I can fire all 30 rounds from my Snider without a serious build-up of fouling. Once, a family emergency caused me to forget about the Snider that I was shooting for about a month. When I finally got to it, no rust! As long as black powder fouling is in a dry place, it won't cause rust. If I need more power, I just put my antiques away and use a modern firearm. What do all you guys with crusted fouling and binding revolvers do? Shoot unlubed bullets? As long as you use a nice soft lube, with no petroleum based components, the fouling stays soft. Any trace of petroleum in the lube will turn the fouling rock hard.
I once thought like you, Bushman79. Then I started reading more about it, mostly here on CGN. I find I enjoy my antiques more often if I have the option of using smokeless. It's not about more power, its about matching a powder to your load that is similiar to a black powder load. The big cartridge companies have been doing it since the begining of smokeless powders. Some great black powder cartridges are still being loaded with smokeless powders and the cartridge caliber and the guns that shoot them have been saved from the scrap pile. 45-70, .44/40, 38S&W and even the .22 rimfire were all BP cartridges at one time.
I load all those with black, except the .22rf. Even my .32WCF gets fed only with black now. I used to load nothing but smokeless, but I have found that I get better accuracy with black. Plus, it just seems so much more appropriate to shoot ammo made to 19th century specs. And more fun, too!
The key word is in a dry place; that does not describe Vancouver Island. Back in the days when many of us used WD40, I had some major problems with rust because it had evaporated and this was even after the guns had been washed out and scrubbed with a bronze bore brush.
I have reached a point where I think I will primarily use smokeless in my Webley's because it is just such a pain to strip them and clean the extractor assembly. Not doing that inevitably results in rust and sticking of the extractor. I also shoot smokeless in my hammer shotguns largely because I can load the shells several times faster with smokeless. At our annual turkey shoot, I load smokeless in my single shot rifles partly because it is faster and partly because I don't have to clean that night and partly because I don't have to run a brush through the bore between shots.
All of the above might come as a bit of surprise to some because I am in many ways a died in the wool black powder shooter and certainly would not consider pellets or pyrodex or any of the other substitutes in my muzzle loaders much less one of the inlines with caseless ammunition.
cheers mooncoon
Yes its so wet here on Vancouver island our guns grow Webs
Everything is Wet here now 9 months a year.
Thats why they call it a Rain forest.
thank goodness for Wood heat tho.
Im the same way im not into Compleatly stripping my Antique guns down (undoing Screws Ect) and doing the cleaning it sucks when i can use 2400 get the same or better veloictys and no big time consumeing clean up job.
and unique is a great smokeless gun powder used by hunderds of guys in there 455 webleys 44 russians ect.
only gun i shoot Pyrodex in(thats stuff leaves a very Sticky residue on guns) but i use it in my 1871 Remington 50- 70 Single shot pistol.
Because its a Single shot its not bad to clean up at all just the bore gets dirty.
But in Revolvers! forget that.
Everything is Wet here now 9 months a year.
Thats why they call it a Rain forest.
thank goodness for Wood heat tho.
Im the same way im not into Compleatly stripping my Antique guns down (undoing Screws Ect) and doing the cleaning it sucks when i can use 2400 get the same or better veloictys and no big time consumeing clean up job.
and unique is a great smokeless gun powder used by hunderds of guys in there 455 webleys 44 russians ect.
only gun i shoot Pyrodex in(thats stuff leaves a very Sticky residue on guns) but i use it in my 1871 Remington 50- 70 Single shot pistol.
Because its a Single shot its not bad to clean up at all just the bore gets dirty.
But in Revolvers! forget that.
I shot more than 1000 rounds (probably 1200-1300.) with Unique out of one of my antique revolvers, probably more than it shot in its entire life. The accuracy has been exceptional. The original load was 17.5 gr of BP, I used 3.4gr of Unique. I clean that gun every once in a while, perhaps 2 times a year. No rust.
Huh! I live North of Van Island where it's even wetter, and have never had a problem. My Snider is fired at least 250 times a year, and the only part that comes out for cleaning is the breech block. I do a complete tear down every second year, and have never found rust. Same with my 71/84. I did have the bore in a Webley rust in less than a week after shooting Unique in it. Same with a shotgun. I now clean ALL of my guns as soon as I get home. Pyrodex is another thing altogether. It will destroy a gun in a matter of weeks if left uncleaned. I once saw a Parker Hale musket ruined from that stuff. The .45 Colt gets the cylinder and bushing pulled, then a brush soaked in Hoppes 9 is pushed through each chamber twice, and the bore four times. A few dry patches, and oil the bore. Once a year the innards are removed and wiped clean. No rust. WD-40 belongs nowhere near firearms. I use Fluid Film to clean my Sniders and Martinis and things. It works really well. Many guns rust because of people using witches brews for lube, particularly those containing beef tallow. It is salty, so it causes rust. The .32WCF is one of the best rounds to load with black. 18gr. FFG loads with a 115gr. bullet produce almost no fouling, and a hundred rounds can be fired with no real loss of accuracy. Cleaning is as simple as cleaning for smokeless. Again, no dismantling, but still no rust. So, to sum it up, it just surprises me to hear about guns rusting away from black powder. In the days when these weapons were in daily use, they certainly didn't dismantle them for cleaning every time. Indeed, some old time weapons actually needed special tools to strip them. I know several shooters who won't touch black because they're convinced it will destroy their guns. A crying shame.
black powder vs. smokeless
The whole reason I shoot my replica Sharps with BP is to recreate the way things were done over 100 years ago....I would not buy my replica guns for smokeless shooting......but that is my preference.......so, use BP, put up with cleaning between shots, put up with a thorough cleaning every time you finish shooting...but the thump, the flash, and the smoke of BP loads is my enjoyment.....
The whole reason I shoot my replica Sharps with BP is to recreate the way things were done over 100 years ago....I would not buy my replica guns for smokeless shooting......but that is my preference.......so, use BP, put up with cleaning between shots, put up with a thorough cleaning every time you finish shooting...but the thump, the flash, and the smoke of BP loads is my enjoyment.....
Well, even though I use mostly smokeless in all my old black powder cartridge loads, I do admit that nothing beats the boom, flash and smoke of BP. For that reason, every once in a while, I'll load up a batch of BP cartridges and have some real fun.
To all those arguing smokeless vs BP...
Go back and read the beginning of this thread. I started this thread firstly to explain why some of us are interested in developing smokeless loads for our old BP guns...second, so that those of us that do know how to load certain smokeless loads in certain antiques can have a single thread to share our experiences.
Ive stated this before and I cant resist stating it again. Everyone has their reasons why they do or dont want to use smokeless in BP guns. Again its only the experienced folks with very strong antiques that should even be thinking of trying something like this...
THIS ISNT A THREAD FOR ARGUING OVER SMOKELESS VS BLACK POWDER...EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINIONS.
This is intended to let the few of us that do this thing discuss our experiences...
(Granted, the discussion on original developments of smokeless from the old bp loads and the history of it all is great.)
...again, Please dont use this thread to argue that its blasphemy to shoot smokeless in antiques...no boom, puff of smoke ect. Its annoying to have to sift through all of the arguments to find the real info we are looking for...the loading data, pressure vs burn rates, experiences ect.
...Just my rant...Again.
Go back and read the beginning of this thread. I started this thread firstly to explain why some of us are interested in developing smokeless loads for our old BP guns...second, so that those of us that do know how to load certain smokeless loads in certain antiques can have a single thread to share our experiences.
Ive stated this before and I cant resist stating it again. Everyone has their reasons why they do or dont want to use smokeless in BP guns. Again its only the experienced folks with very strong antiques that should even be thinking of trying something like this...
THIS ISNT A THREAD FOR ARGUING OVER SMOKELESS VS BLACK POWDER...EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINIONS.
This is intended to let the few of us that do this thing discuss our experiences...
(Granted, the discussion on original developments of smokeless from the old bp loads and the history of it all is great.)
...again, Please dont use this thread to argue that its blasphemy to shoot smokeless in antiques...no boom, puff of smoke ect. Its annoying to have to sift through all of the arguments to find the real info we are looking for...the loading data, pressure vs burn rates, experiences ect.
...Just my rant...Again.
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