Smokeless in Antiques

Ardent said:
I have a 1 1/2 pounder cannon made of modern turned ordnance steel, total weight with carriage will be ~200lbs and I also hope there is some way to run smokeless of some sort or other in it. Likely not, but BP is just such a mess and corrosive.
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Use much less corrosive Shockey's Gold BP substitute.
 
Ardent said:
I have a 1 1/2 pounder cannon made of modern turned ordnance steel, total weight with carriage will be ~200lbs and I also hope there is some way to run smokeless of some sort or other in it. Likely not, but BP is just such a mess and corrosive.
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I am sure there is a way to run smokeless, although many will say there isn't. I don't think finding a suitable load is the issue, I imagine that two things are the problem:

- igniting it; and
- creating a good enough seal between ball and barrel such that correct minimum pressures can be created and maintained. Black powder can explode in open air, while smokeless must remain contained to maintain a good burn (one of the reasons it's so "safe").

No doubt others have tried, but just gone back to black.
 
Same thoughts here, getting reliable ignition and powder burn would be one of the biggest challenges. Now that the registry's gone I'm not worried about converting to 209 primer ignition etc to have sealed ignition.

My cannon is stronger than a lot of artillery designs, being turned modern ordnance steel with chamber wall thickness measured in inches and no breech mechanism to weaken it.
 
Win 38-55

Nice input by you. You mention imr 4198. I like H4198 for its good metering , with good results in old large capacity cases , also I am starting to use H4895,

I am having good results with both, even without fillers. What do you think of these powders?

Cheers
 
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25-20 I have not tried either of them, but they are in the right range for a smokeless substitute. The slower powders might not burn completely. Are you getting many unburnt powder kernels in the bore with H4895?
 
Thanks for all the info, on using smokless in BP guns.
I was wondering if anyone developed a smokeless load in an inline muzzleloader?
And what was the results?
I love my muzzleloaders, but sometimes don't have time rightaway to clean them.
and they do get fouled up good.
Thanks
 
I have absolutely zero experience with muzzle loaders, so I'm not in a position to say anything about using smokeless in them. Off the top of my head, however, I can see a lot of potential for an overcharge and certain disaster if some poor soul used a fast powder. My natural instincts, would be to stay away from smokeless in muzzle loaders, in spite of my experience using smokeless in BP cartridges. I ain't gonna touch it. Perhaps someone with real experience and who lived to tell the tale, would comment.
 
There is a very good discussion on the CASCity website right now re: using smokeless in antique revolvers, not rifles. There are several graphs showing pressures spikes with various powders and the duration of them.
It surprised me to read that Trail Boss has a quite high spike and is therefore NOT recommended for use in antique revolvers; rifles OK.

You may or may not agree, but I'm not prepared to refute their research findings.
 
I totally agree. I've posted those same graphs here on CGN, probably earlier in this thread. Trailboss is a very fast powder. As for smokeless in rifles, by 1895, Winchester was offering smokeless cartridges for all the old rifles, including the Model 1873. The only one that I'm not aware of anyone offering smokeless in was the Model 1876, but that was probably because the cartridges were already considered obsolete. I've used nothing but smokeless for years in all my old Winchesters, including the '76, but I use the medium speed powders with the same or slightly lower pressure curves as BP.
 
dingus said:
So says You!

I see plenty of Advantages. ;) I can get more POWER outa some of my Better strong Antique guns useing 2400 Smokeless like old Elmer and i have not hurt a hair on any of my guns :p

I dont have my guns all covered in sticky Residue from fireing BP My Revolvers dont seize up from Fouling or get hard to cycle!

I can go put 50 + rounds thru my gun at the Range and come home without a rush to Clean it.
And my Wife dont get pissed at me for makeing a big Mess in the sink :D

I did give BP a good try in my Antique guns you guys can keep it.
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I went out to practice today, 80 grains of 3f powder and 375grain Minnie .50, only got 6 shots off. even the last 2 I was hesitant to shoot as I had nothing to clean the bore with and the last round was damn snug 2/3 way down, I really wanted to abort at that point but I didn't know how I would get the charge out without shooting, so I crammed it in and fired it off. Lucky me I have all my fingers left. While I enjoyed the smoke and flash I would rather shoot smokeless for being able to take many shots without worrying about cleaning the barrel.

How do you measure (2400) smokeless powder for BP use, weight or volume? How does one know they gone too far if there is no expanded primer cap to indicate over pressure?
 
After reading all the reasons to shoot smokeless in BP guns, I would ask why you bought a gun designed for black powder? Sure, its dirty, that's why you clean it with a kettle full of boiling hot water and a funnel in the arse end. That washes out the particles lodged in those pits in the bore. You cannot overcharge BP, BUT make a mistake with smokeless..... Like accidently loading a double charge. And that has happened more than once!!! You can't go to the local gun store and buy another rifle just like it.
 
John Sukey said:
After reading all the reasons to shoot smokeless in BP guns, I would ask why you bought a gun designed for black powder? Sure, its dirty, that's why you clean it with a kettle full of boiling hot water and a funnel in the arse end. That washes out the particles lodged in those pits in the bore. You cannot overcharge BP, BUT make a mistake with smokeless..... Like accidently loading a double charge. And that has happened more than once!!! You can't go to the local gun store and buy another rifle just like it.
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I see you live in Tucson AZ, so it might not make much sense to you. The reason Canadians are buying old pistols made in the BP era with the intention of actually shooting them is due to an odd quirk in the Canadian firearm classification system. A pistol made before 1898 and designed to fire a BP cartridge (or cap-and-ball for that matter), is legally classed as a "prescribed antique" rather than a restricted firearm. As such, you don't even need a PAL, let alone an RPAL, to own it. And if you actually shoot it, it is then treated as a firearm while being used, but only as a non-restricted rather than a restricted firearm like modern pistols.

This makes old BP pistols the only pistols that a common garden-variety citizen can legally carry in places where he or she could legally carry a non-restricted rifle or shotgun, such as on wilderness trips. Obviously, most people would much rather be packing a modern revolver or self-loader when out hiking, fishing, canoeing or working in wilderness areas, but good luck getting a carry permit for one.

I see you like Webleys. If you have a WW1-era Mk VI in .455, you can only use it at a target range - if you have a permit to transport it there and back. If you have a Mk 1 or 2 made just before the Boer War - virtually the identical pistol and also in .455 but officially made for BP .455 - you can pack it in a hip holster while out fishing. Stupid but there it is. Which is also why a nice Mk V or VI goes for about $600, while a Mk 2 made less than 20 years earlier goes for closer to $2000 up here.
 
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The biggest arguments against using smokeless in an antique seem to be:

- "It was designed for blackpowder" and therefore;
- it's unsafe to use smokeless; and
- "Why would you want to?".

There's a nuance here - they were actually designed for blackpowder pressures, and if you're careful and not an idiot, you can safely employ smokeless in them as has been proven repeatedly. There are plenty of modern guns that can be blown up by idiots, so sadly, it's dangerous out there. As for why someone would not want to use blackpowder, the reasons are obvious.
 
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I like the fact that I can (and do) safely use both BP or smokeless in the same arm.
Some times I like a big booom and cloud and other times I like a sharp craack. Hard to know which I preferr. Just depends, I guess, on my mood and maybe which way the wind's blowing!! LOL
To me, it would seem a shame to limit yourself to either.
 
Hi all.
i've been trying to find out if there is a safe load using unique or imr4198 for .38 rimfire in an old revolver. anything anybody has really said is not to, or pure experimentation loads. just looking to make the gun punch some paper.
 
IMR 4198 gives a significantly lower peak pressure than FFFg for the same bullet, case, and muzzle velocity, so it is a very safe powder to use. I have used IMR 4198 in a 45 Schofield pistol cartridge and it does a good job of filling up the case. The only downside is that you may have unburnt powder grains.
 
(copied)
When you must avoid the use of BP,the best substitute is DuPont's smokeless IMR4198.A standard rule of thumb for this powder is as follows:
IMR4198=(org.BP)(.29)
Translation:
To determine the weight of IMR4198 for a specific cartridge,multiply the original weight of black powder by .29,which is a constant.
Example:
When reloading .45-125 Winchester ammo without using black powder,apply this formula:
(125)(.29)=36.25
Explanation:
36.3 grains of IMR4198 is the suggested smokeless powder load for use with the original weight bullet(in this case 300 gr)
(copied)

Very interesting! I have spent a little time the last few days working up a good load with IMR4198 for a Shiloh Sharps 40-90 Sharps Straight and came up with a charge weight of 25 grains under a 400gr cast bullet. If we do the math on this we come up with a charge weight of 26.1gr. Very close. This gives me a little more confidence in my extrapolations!
 
hi do not know if this is the place to ask this or not I want to hunt deer this year with my new H/R buffalo classic using BP during the season for BP but most of the time I am going to it with smokeless power at the range what is a good BP to use in it with a 405 grain bullet to keep it down around 1300 to 1500 fps and is safe to use and cleans up good
 
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