Sunray, you have to match the burning speed with a capacity load. It's probably good for the 44 Russian, but a little too fast for the 45 Schofield or the 45 Colt. If you go with a powder slower than 4227 in the 44 Russian, you will not be able to achieve original BP velocities.
Smokeless Loads for Antiques part 1 - 41 Long colt
- Thread starter sportee
- Start date
Just for ####s and giggles i thought i would post my current loads...
At the moment im shooting 16 grains pyro P, 186 grain HB bullet in a full length 41LC case. Not sure of velocity yet as i havent chronied this load. (im sure that if i used the heeled bullet in the full case i could fit about 18 grains)
My 'fun" load is 13 grains pyro and a 200 grain heeled bullet in a shortened case...velocities average around 400fps. (basically this is the same load as the original 41 short colt except with a heavier slug)
The biggest and most important factor is that im shooting in a colt model 1877...These guns have very thin cylinder walls so im very concerned about pressures.
At the moment im shooting 16 grains pyro P, 186 grain HB bullet in a full length 41LC case. Not sure of velocity yet as i havent chronied this load. (im sure that if i used the heeled bullet in the full case i could fit about 18 grains)
My 'fun" load is 13 grains pyro and a 200 grain heeled bullet in a shortened case...velocities average around 400fps. (basically this is the same load as the original 41 short colt except with a heavier slug)
The biggest and most important factor is that im shooting in a colt model 1877...These guns have very thin cylinder walls so im very concerned about pressures.
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(see below)
I finally got out to test some loads. Being as cautious as possible I started at a rediculously low 5 grains of 4227. It didnt even read in the chrony. Next i went up to 8 grains, then 10, then 11, then 12, then 13.
Final results:
186gr HB bullet
13 grains IMR 4227
691-749 FPS (more lube = Faster MV)
Avg Vel about 725 FPS
Im going to try to get the velocity range tighter with different lubes in the future.
Grouping at 25 yards was 3.5 inches
(off rest - 5 shots - the 6th cartridge misfired)... Keep in mind this is a 41 long colt. Those of you that have shot this caliber know its accuracy issues.
All in all i am very satisfied...the load was very accurate and very clean with only a few granuals of unburned powder left in the barrel. NO fouling. Recoil was somewhat lighter than the BP loads as was the report.
Thanks to all that helped out.
I have to post a follow up here in case some body takes this info and uses it without reading the rest of this thread.
After trying this load it was discovered that the primers were pierced, flowed and the case was slammed back into the frame of the gun. The cause of my incorrect data may have been a malfunctioning chrony giving slower velocities than the load was actually producing. Basically, dont try this load, Its use in an antique revolver (or any for that matter) may be catastrophic.
I finally got out to test some loads. Being as cautious as possible I started at a rediculously low 5 grains of 4227. It didnt even read in the chrony. Next i went up to 8 grains, then 10, then 11, then 12, then 13.
Final results:
186gr HB bullet
13 grains IMR 4227
691-749 FPS (more lube = Faster MV)
Avg Vel about 725 FPS
Im going to try to get the velocity range tighter with different lubes in the future.
Grouping at 25 yards was 3.5 inches
(off rest - 5 shots - the 6th cartridge misfired)... Keep in mind this is a 41 long colt. Those of you that have shot this caliber know its accuracy issues.All in all i am very satisfied...the load was very accurate and very clean with only a few granuals of unburned powder left in the barrel. NO fouling. Recoil was somewhat lighter than the BP loads as was the report.
Thanks to all that helped out.
I have to post a follow up here in case some body takes this info and uses it without reading the rest of this thread.
After trying this load it was discovered that the primers were pierced, flowed and the case was slammed back into the frame of the gun. The cause of my incorrect data may have been a malfunctioning chrony giving slower velocities than the load was actually producing. Basically, dont try this load, Its use in an antique revolver (or any for that matter) may be catastrophic.
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Nice work, Sportee. The recoil is lighter because that load is putting them out the barrel at a lower velocity than Pyrodex P (which probably gives over 800 fps). I would say that you have a nice, safe load. The extreme spread is a bit large, but you are far enough into the safe zone that even the fastest velocity is still conservative. How much is the case filled? You won't really get low extreme spreads until you've got a capacity load. One way of doing that without using any more powder is to seat your bullet a little deeper.
Im getting a fairly full case. If I seat the bullet to the first lube groove the case is pretty much filled with only the hollow base of the slug void. I could seat it to the top band and crimp but it would compress the powder a bit...If ive read correctly, more comression = more pressure. Not something I want. The large spread was primarily due to my measuring I think. (I dont think my powder thrower is broken in yet). Lubing was the other factor. The low velocities were tumble lubed - liquid...higher velocities were lubed with lots of BP lube. Once i get the lube straightened out and my thrower measuring more accurate i think the spread will narrow up.
Slight compression of smokeless is good. More compression does not necessarily mean more pressure. The increased pressure would come primarily from the reduced case capacity due to seating the bullet deeper. you can experiment and chronograph the results. More compression will result in a lower E.S.
The reason is that you probably could not get enough powder in the case to reproduce original loads .... it's just too bulky. There may be large cases where it might work. For example, I've used it with good results in the 38/55, but the case capacity is much larger than for a pistol cartridge.
Update...
I finally got to checking over my cases from the tests for sighs if pressure, failure ect.
The one on the left is 13 grains 4227 at 724 fps load...the one on the right is the 16 grain bp load. As you can see there is too much case pressure. The primer was slammed back agains the frame of the gun squishing it.
BTW...they are 38 spl cases re-formed to 41 colt.
Maybe after all of this i will stick to BP.
I finally got to checking over my cases from the tests for sighs if pressure, failure ect.
The one on the left is 13 grains 4227 at 724 fps load...the one on the right is the 16 grain bp load. As you can see there is too much case pressure. The primer was slammed back agains the frame of the gun squishing it.
BTW...they are 38 spl cases re-formed to 41 colt.
Maybe after all of this i will stick to BP.
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Sportee, that left primer is nasty! In all my 30 years of reloading, I've never seen a primer like that, and in my younger days, I would regularly load up my 303 British to the point of sticky extraction. Something is really wrong. Was that the only cartridge you fired? Did you chrono that load? Are you absolutely sure it was IMR 4227? Are you sure of the charge weight? Whatever is wrong, there is no way I'd fire that in any gun at all, with primers like that.
The only other option I can think of is that the pressure was too low to expand the case to the chamber walls, which will slam the case back. When I develop a load, I start low .... if the case is dirty on the outside, it is not expanding enough. I work up until the case is clean on the outside and gives my original or lower BP velocities. In general, any load that does not develop sufficient pressure to expand the case to seal against the chamber walls, is going to slam the dickens out of the bolt or firing pin area. I agree that it might be better to stick to BP for this cartridge. If you're ever in my area, come on over and we can work on a smokeless load.
The only other option I can think of is that the pressure was too low to expand the case to the chamber walls, which will slam the case back. When I develop a load, I start low .... if the case is dirty on the outside, it is not expanding enough. I work up until the case is clean on the outside and gives my original or lower BP velocities. In general, any load that does not develop sufficient pressure to expand the case to seal against the chamber walls, is going to slam the dickens out of the bolt or firing pin area. I agree that it might be better to stick to BP for this cartridge. If you're ever in my area, come on over and we can work on a smokeless load.
WIN 38 55 he saying the left one is BP NOT the smokeless i think
I have had Primers Like the LEFT ONE with full loads of Pyrodex in a 45 colt case.
Thats exactly what they looked like.
I fired of about 20 like that. Till and old timer told me thats not good LOL
You guys get the left right thing sorted out tho!
He says the Right one is 4227 thats the RIGHT one! It dont look to bad to me!
The left one is Flowing and flatened.
Funny when my primers looked like that Left one all Flowing with the full Pyrodex loads the cases extracted no problem at all.
I have had Primers Like the LEFT ONE with full loads of Pyrodex in a 45 colt case.
Thats exactly what they looked like.
I fired of about 20 like that. Till and old timer told me thats not good LOL
You guys get the left right thing sorted out tho!
He says the Right one is 4227 thats the RIGHT one! It dont look to bad to me!
The left one is Flowing and flatened.
Funny when my primers looked like that Left one all Flowing with the full Pyrodex loads the cases extracted no problem at all.
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Whoops! That nasty primer was produced by Pyrodex!! Well that does it for me; I won't be using Pyrodex in my guns. I was looking over Mike Venturino's loads using Pyrodex and they all gave significantly faster velocities in his old sixguns than FFFg did. If Pyrodex produces primers like that, it must give a pretty impressive pressure spike. The IMR 4227 primer, on the other hand, looks great. Disregard my previous post where I got the two primers mixed up. I sure could not see how 13 grains of 4227 would do that! Even when developing smokeless loads for black powder cartridges, I like to stay below Pyrodex velocities. I'm surprised folks don't blow up their vintage guns using that stuff, but what do I know .... I've never used it.
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I used it alot and dont so much anymore but i was shooting 45 Colts loaded to the nuts with the stuff. My primers were just like that one above.
But in my 50 70 Rem rolling block pistol the pyrodex was fine NO flatened primer so i think Pyrodex is OK in bigger Cases like the 45 70 or my 50 70.
And i will tell you that pistol of mine with FULL Pyrodex 50 70 loads with a
So pyrodex has a place in my stuff still.
Its all i can do to hang onto the gun its deadly accurate.
But in my 50 70 Rem rolling block pistol the pyrodex was fine NO flatened primer so i think Pyrodex is OK in bigger Cases like the 45 70 or my 50 70.
And i will tell you that pistol of mine with FULL Pyrodex 50 70 loads with a
So pyrodex has a place in my stuff still.
Its all i can do to hang onto the gun its deadly accurate.
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