Hmm, 13 grains of 4227 vs 15-16 of pyrodex... should be OK unless 4227 is too fast for this application (it shouldn't be). Next slowest from 4227 is 4198/RL-7, and it's quite a bit slower. Perhaps you should reduce the charge, and go faster. 5-6-ish grains of Blue Dot seems about right (though I'm guessing here); it's relatively bulky and ignites well, and is about 50-60% faster than 4227
Smokeless Loads for Antiques part 1 - 41 Long colt
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In that case, there is something badly wrong with some aspect of the loading process. First, you couldn't pay me enough to shoot even one more of those loads. Second, my original post raising some questions is therefore relevant. Are you absolutely sure there hasn't been a mix up in powders. I don't think you can stuff enough 4227 in a 38 special case to do what I see happening here. More likely is that the pressure is too low to expand the thicker case walls (I'm assuming the original 41 Long Colt had thinner case walls) to grip the chamber walls, allowing it to slam back against the firing pin. Regardless, this is a head-scratcher. Don't use those loads.
Maybe someone with more reloading experience can help me out here.
Why would it be safe to use 13 grns of IMR4227 in an antique .41 when my second edition of Modern Reloading lists 12.5 grns as a never exceed load for a .357 mag with a 200grn lead bullet?
It also lists the velocity @ 966 FPS.
Why would it be safe to use 13 grns of IMR4227 in an antique .41 when my second edition of Modern Reloading lists 12.5 grns as a never exceed load for a .357 mag with a 200grn lead bullet?
It also lists the velocity @ 966 FPS.
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OK well is the 15 to 16 gr pyrodex load is that a full case full right to the bullet and slight compression. Or is there filler in there to?I cant comment on that smokeless load as i dont use that stuff.
But it sure looks like my hot 45 colt pyro loads.
Kirk maby you can post a few pics of your 44 Russian cases primers with the smokeless powder you load.
Sportees pics are gona scare people right off useing the 4227
i know im in no hurry to go try it looking at his primer.
If you don't have a proper CUP tester you really don't know what is happening if you don't have one as most of us I'm sure don't have working up your own loads just by inspecting brass and primers is not exact science and could lead you into trouble. you have know idea of the pressure curve lower velocity does not always mean lower pressure according to my books any way. when I used black or pyrodex pistol in mine no problems 777 caused the primers to flatten a bit more than they should have but there is little data that I can find on using it cartridge guns 38-55 could be on to something the case capacity on the 38 special brass is probably lower than tha 41 colt brass and is giving more pressure or the cases are slamming back although I've shot 38 special for years with only 10 grains of black and filler and the cases have never slammed back. My best results for accuracy have been with a nearly full case of black enough powder to give slight compression in my 41 long colt
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Ok, Lots of questions. Here's my info on my loads.
At about 10 grains the 4227 wast distorting primers. Velocity was only at about 500fps though.
At 13 grains i was getting around 724fps but i didnt have a good look at the cases until i got to cleaning them. I should have been watching them while i was working up the load
To answer your question Mark, the 15-16 grain bp loads are full case loads...no filler, slightly compressed powder. They are in slightly shortened cases though.
As for smokepoles comment...i am only getting about 724 fps out of 13 grains 4227 with a roughly 196 grain hollow based bullet from a 6" barrel.
And for Kirks comment...The cases were actually very tight in the cylinders. I generally take the cylinder out and use a dowel to eject the cases and they were fairly tight. also i am getting no soot on the case which suggests to me that i am getting a gas seal. I'll hafe to look closer at the brass to see if im getting flowing on the head of the case itself or if the pressure inside the case is simply pushing the primers backwards in the pocket. Remember that i am anealing the brass to form it to 41lc dia...this might be softening the primer pockets to the point that they are allowing the primers to be "pushed back" on firing.
Not meaning to put people off the 4227 stuff I need to do some more inspecting to figure out ehats happening but if Kirk is using similar loads (albeit with 5744) in his 44 russian and not getting this problem than im thinking that it might be the anealing that allowed the primers to blow back. Ill have a closer look at the heads for flowing and get back to y'all.
At about 10 grains the 4227 wast distorting primers. Velocity was only at about 500fps though.
At 13 grains i was getting around 724fps but i didnt have a good look at the cases until i got to cleaning them. I should have been watching them while i was working up the load
To answer your question Mark, the 15-16 grain bp loads are full case loads...no filler, slightly compressed powder. They are in slightly shortened cases though.
As for smokepoles comment...i am only getting about 724 fps out of 13 grains 4227 with a roughly 196 grain hollow based bullet from a 6" barrel.
And for Kirks comment...The cases were actually very tight in the cylinders. I generally take the cylinder out and use a dowel to eject the cases and they were fairly tight. also i am getting no soot on the case which suggests to me that i am getting a gas seal. I'll hafe to look closer at the brass to see if im getting flowing on the head of the case itself or if the pressure inside the case is simply pushing the primers backwards in the pocket. Remember that i am anealing the brass to form it to 41lc dia...this might be softening the primer pockets to the point that they are allowing the primers to be "pushed back" on firing.
Not meaning to put people off the 4227 stuff
I need to do some more inspecting to figure out ehats happening but if Kirk is using similar loads (albeit with 5744) in his 44 russian and not getting this problem than im thinking that it might be the anealing that allowed the primers to blow back. Ill have a closer look at the heads for flowing and get back to y'all.
Pierced primers and tough extraction with a slightly blown out 38 Special case loaded with 13 grains of H4227 under a 196gr bullet. In a 38 Special that'd be about 4.0 grains over max, 3.0 grains over for 38 Special +P, and about max for a 357 Mag which has a larger case. That load in the 357 Mag is about 40K CUP and 1250 fps MV.
If not for your chrony, everything points to a very hot load. Sure the chrony is working ok?
If not for your chrony, everything points to a very hot load. Sure the chrony is working ok?
My deduction...
I took another look at the cases. definietly slamed against the frame. there are little rings on the heads from the frame of the gun. im thinking that the imr 4227 being too slow to burn completely in the cylinder doesnt have enough initial pressure to expand the case properly...thats why im getting the case slamming back and the primer issues. Being a slower powder im guesing that its burning more in the barrel as it goes...again, less initial pressure.
Another contributing factor to the primer flowing could be the softer anealed brass (possibly over anealed) and thus larger primer pockets not holding the primers as tightly.
the "tight" extraction may be faint pitting in the cylinder and dirty brass (it needs a good cleaning)
Just some more ideas...it might just be too much pressure as well.
I took another look at the cases. definietly slamed against the frame. there are little rings on the heads from the frame of the gun. im thinking that the imr 4227 being too slow to burn completely in the cylinder doesnt have enough initial pressure to expand the case properly...thats why im getting the case slamming back and the primer issues. Being a slower powder im guesing that its burning more in the barrel as it goes...again, less initial pressure.
Another contributing factor to the primer flowing could be the softer anealed brass (possibly over anealed) and thus larger primer pockets not holding the primers as tightly.
the "tight" extraction may be faint pitting in the cylinder and dirty brass (it needs a good cleaning)
Just some more ideas...it might just be too much pressure as well.
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Sportee, I still think you should absolutely stop using that load. I am away from home these last few days (hunting up in northern Ontario). When I develop a smokeless load I do so with great caution, increasing slowly and with chrono readings all along. I've not used IMR 4227 in any development work but Andy is pointing to some load charts which I take very seriously when I'm developing a load. Your chrono readings seem to be totally out of sync with what you would expect from the data that Andy's charts state. You are getting only 724 fps with a load that, according to Andy's data, should be giving 1,250 fps with a larger case, and even higher with a lower case capacity. Bottom line is that I would not touch that load with a 10-foot pole. I wish I could investigate this further, but up north where I am hunting, I have no access to my own load charts and data. All I can say for now is that something is really out of whack .... maybe your chronograph. I also wonder what the throat diameter of your chambers are compared to the diameter of your bullet. That could cause a very high pressure situation with possibly a sub-normal muzzle velocity under certain conditions. For now, FFFg seems to be the safest thing until we find out why your load gives such bizarrely low velocity for such a high pressure.
I don't shoot the 41LC, but read up a bit and saw a couple of loads in the 15K CUP range for a 200gr cast bullet:
- 3.0 grs of Bullseye (750 fps) and
- 9.0 grs of IMR4227 (850 fps).
Seems that 38 Special starting loads are good for this round. Just what I read.
I have had my chrony act up when shooting pistol bullets - lots of errors and some wacky readings. Whatever it is, something's not right.
- 3.0 grs of Bullseye (750 fps) and
- 9.0 grs of IMR4227 (850 fps).
Seems that 38 Special starting loads are good for this round. Just what I read.
I have had my chrony act up when shooting pistol bullets - lots of errors and some wacky readings. Whatever it is, something's not right.
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Andy's data seems to be much more realistic re. load vs. velocity. I'm a little on the conservative side when it comes to this stuff, so I would not use Bullseye simply because it is very fast and has a higher peak pressure than black powder. IMR 4227 would give a lower peak pressure than black powder for the same velocity. Andy's 4227 load seems to be fairly low pressure but because I tend to be a bit cautious, I would reduce the 4227 load that Andy posted. 850 fps is pretty fast for the 41 Colt. I'd feel better with something around 800 fps or even 780 fps. You may be able to even use IMR 4198 which is a bit slower, and may give a capacity load for something around 780 fps. In the meantime, something seems to be dreadfully wrong with your chrono. How far away from your chrono are you when you take a reading?
That's understood, but they are so close as to be practically interchangeable. Most Burn Rate Tables have them beside each other, sometimes IMR is shown to be faster, sometimes Hodgdon. Regardless, 13.0 grs of either with a 196gr bullet is 357 Mag territory, and not fit for an antique.
I agree that I would go slower than Bullseye, and more towards 4227. Perhaps start at 7.0 grs and stop at about 800 fps. IMR 4198 sounds like a good suggestion.
The funny thing about this project is taht i wanted to keep the pressures extra low to be conservative...instead (probably due to a faulty chrony) I have worked up a bomb round that should have blew the gun to pieces.
In the beginning i was very impressed with my results. Unfortunately after inspecting the brass i realized that i was getting wayyyy too much pressure.
What this whole experience has taught my is to make sure your equipment is working properly. Honestly I think im lucky to have both my hands right now.
For now im going to stick with my BP in the old gun...maybe with some new equipment i can try working something up again.
In the end i guess i can be satisfied that i havea good strong cylinder
In the beginning i was very impressed with my results. Unfortunately after inspecting the brass i realized that i was getting wayyyy too much pressure.
What this whole experience has taught my is to make sure your equipment is working properly. Honestly I think im lucky to have both my hands right now.
For now im going to stick with my BP in the old gun...maybe with some new equipment i can try working something up again.
In the end i guess i can be satisfied that i havea good strong cylinder
No offence to you, Sportee, we are all happy no-one was injured, but using a loading data chart to cross reference the load would have prevented the mishap. I know there is little data available for obsolete calibers, but a look at similiar calibers and bullet weights would have revealed the likely balistics of the load.
I know this has helped me to not make the same mistake..... I hope we can all learn from it.
I know this has helped me to not make the same mistake..... I hope we can all learn from it.
To your credit you pointed this out early on. Fortunately all worked out, and Sportee has one tough-ass revolver.
I agree - determine what a max load should be based on similar published loads and the known strength of your gun. Given that the case is just slightly larger than the 38 Special (blown out), you can safely say that using any 38 Special load would result in pressures slightly less than for the 38 Special, due to the larger case size and larger bore. When all goes well, the chrony will not show any surprises, rather will confirm what you had expected.
