antiqueguy
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that's really the only way to get the full effect
Smokeless Loads for Martini-Henry .450/577 and Snider-Enfield .577 Calibers!?
- Thread starter Nabs
- Start date
that's really the only way to get the full effect
Not for this guy. If I can't use smokeless powder I wont use the rifle, and as the OP asked when HE STARTED this thread, what are the SMOKELESS recommendation's. Not black.
If you wanna discuss the use of black, start YOUR OWN thread
If you wanna discuss the use of black, start YOUR OWN thread
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
I already gave them 40% nitro for black with H4198 for the .577-450 sniders are not safe to use smokeless in so I will not give any recommendations
Well gee, pardon us all to hell for offering sound advice and opinions about using wads, fillers with smokeless powders in firearms NOT designed or proofed for them.
By all mean - carry on! Be courteous enough to warn others about what you are doing, or shoot alone.
The guys like Mike Venturino, Steve Garbe, Dave Gullo and others - what the hell do they know? They just make a living writing about such things and going to matches where guys who THINK they know it all come to grief. And while you're at it, contact Shiloh Rifles and tell them that they're out to lunch with their warning about shooting BP only in their high capacity case rifles - UNLESS it is chambered for a modern SMALL capacity case and then ONLY factory ammo.
By all mean - carry on! Be courteous enough to warn others about what you are doing, or shoot alone.
The guys like Mike Venturino, Steve Garbe, Dave Gullo and others - what the hell do they know? They just make a living writing about such things and going to matches where guys who THINK they know it all come to grief. And while you're at it, contact Shiloh Rifles and tell them that they're out to lunch with their warning about shooting BP only in their high capacity case rifles - UNLESS it is chambered for a modern SMALL capacity case and then ONLY factory ammo.
Now, gentlemen, the purpose of this forum post is just to gather information. Lets not go after one another here! The fact seems to stand that the Martini-Henry can take smokeless charges and that a 40% nitro charge to BP is a good average ground. After all, several dozens if not hundreds or more of the Martini-Henry were successfully converted with little effort to fire .303 British smokeless cordite ammunition. I have fired one before! The idea is that black powder is the best thing to use in these guns, that is what they were made for, but if we as shooters don't explore different, new avenues, I feel our sport could well become stagnant as there are far fewer antique gun shooters coming into the sport, than departing it. So lets keep everything friendly here and just give what info we can! Safety is paramount, of course.
It's already a Sticky - it's called "Smokeless in Antiques".
Guns before the advent of smokeless powder were designed for a certain pressure, just like guns of today. Exceed that pressure and trouble can ensue. A thoughtful handloader can develop smokeless loads that are safe in a great variety of antiques.
There's an entire thread about that in: "Smokeless in Antiques".
This thread should have been there. It wouldn't have been safe from the "BP only in Antiques" arguers, but wouldn't have been viewed as quite the target as it was here.
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Interesting video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en384qVqrug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en384qVqrug
Invalid. The video deals with muzzle loaders, not cartridge guns.
There have been many articles written on the topic, some with good ballistic background to back up claims, others not, based on anecdotal evidence of the "I've always done it this way" school of thought. This has caused mishaps in many fine old guns NOT nitro proofed.
Overall, unless a gun has been nitro proofed, it is generally not thought wise to use smokeless. Ringed chambers, burst barrels, personal injury, etc., just because someone couldn't be bothered to use the powder the guns were designed to shoot. Could it be worth the risk when generally gun owners are so safety conscious?
Conversely, it's like shooting BP in a rife designed for smokeless powders. Sure, it can be done, but so what? It's just a stunt, something for a you tube video.
There have been many articles written on the topic, some with good ballistic background to back up claims, others not, based on anecdotal evidence of the "I've always done it this way" school of thought. This has caused mishaps in many fine old guns NOT nitro proofed.
Overall, unless a gun has been nitro proofed, it is generally not thought wise to use smokeless. Ringed chambers, burst barrels, personal injury, etc., just because someone couldn't be bothered to use the powder the guns were designed to shoot. Could it be worth the risk when generally gun owners are so safety conscious?
Conversely, it's like shooting BP in a rife designed for smokeless powders. Sure, it can be done, but so what? It's just a stunt, something for a you tube video.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
trailboss works great in something like a .45-70 but put it in the bottle necked cartridge of the martini and it creates pressure spikes and under no circumstance should smokeless ever be used in a snider as most of these are made from converted p1853 Enfield muzzleloaders
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
that may be true but I would not want to shoot it
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
im far from a fudd but with guns that are 150+ years old and made with barrels of muzzloaders its not a good idea to use something like smokeless not only because of the barrel but also the snider action is not the strongest in the world. the martini on the other hand is like the ruger #1 of its day and can handle just about any cartridge that will make the turn
the idea is staying safe while keeping these old war horses shooting and in good working order
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Thanks, antiqueguy! Some people just don't get it. If a rifle made of modern steel can blow up at the "Quigley" match using smokeless powder, it can happen anywhere. And you can bet it wasn't a weak action like a Snider.
The Mk III Sniders were built from the get go as breech loaders, not conversions from muzzle loaders. They were made with STEEL barrels and had a thumb lever "positive lock" on the breech block. I've owned two such rifles and if I was going to shoot smokeless in a .577 Snider, the Mk III is the ONLY one I would consider.
Dominion may well have loaded .577 Sniders rounds with smokeless, but .....
I've got a copy of: "A History of the Eley Cartridges" by C.W. Harding. In Appendix 'A' there is a list of the metallic cartridges offered by Eley upon closure of the factory in London. There are a total of 16 loads for the .577 Snider listed, ALL of them loaded with black powder.
It is not until you get to the 2-2/4", 3" and 3-1/4" .577 cases that they list Nitro (Cordite) loadings. These were most definitely not chambered in Snider rifles, but intended for SxS rifles for Africa and India.
The Mk III Sniders were built from the get go as breech loaders, not conversions from muzzle loaders. They were made with STEEL barrels and had a thumb lever "positive lock" on the breech block. I've owned two such rifles and if I was going to shoot smokeless in a .577 Snider, the Mk III is the ONLY one I would consider.
Dominion may well have loaded .577 Sniders rounds with smokeless, but .....
I've got a copy of: "A History of the Eley Cartridges" by C.W. Harding. In Appendix 'A' there is a list of the metallic cartridges offered by Eley upon closure of the factory in London. There are a total of 16 loads for the .577 Snider listed, ALL of them loaded with black powder.
It is not until you get to the 2-2/4", 3" and 3-1/4" .577 cases that they list Nitro (Cordite) loadings. These were most definitely not chambered in Snider rifles, but intended for SxS rifles for Africa and India.
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Pulled the bullet on one of these ,it was full to the base of the bullet with irregular shaped grains of grey green colour powder. I suspect it may have been one of the now obsolete "Bulk" smokeless powders.
Dominion was the only company to load smokeless in the Snider ctg.
I've entertained several questions about smokeless in the Snider-Enfield via PM as a result of this thread, and I guess it's up to me to put something together under "Smokeless in Antiques" as my contribution. I did quite a bit of work on it about 10 years ago, did a decent job of documenting it, but soon tired of it and sold the Cadet Carbine I had used to work up the loads.
The loads worked up were done methodically. I used what I had found in the Interwebs, which (like what I post) needs to be carefully parsed to remove the hearsay and nonsense, but also some of the load data that exists for the 24 ga shotgun. That data is useful as it is for a shotgun with a max pressure of ~12K psi, and the 24 ga shotshell closely approximates the 577 bore and case capacity. That's why 24 ga shotshells and brass is so widely used for the Snider - it's just a bit long, but is otherwise a very good fit. Using the 24 ga shotshells for load development offers another measure of safety, as if you exceed 12K psi by even a little, the very thin brass at the base deforms (i.e. flows), telling you to back off.
What I can't find is the 24 ga load data I had from "Ballistic Products". They still provide that, and it provides data for a decent variety of powders and payload weights (e.g. 3/4 oz and up) for the 24 ga shotgun, but you have to pay, and I'm not inclined to do that. It's about US$15:
I even went so far as to play with sabots in the Snider and posted to "British Militaria" with the usual "love it" and "never use smokeless in the Snider" responses. Here are a couple of threads that still exists in the Archives:
This guy thought he was the first to think of it: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/11104/577-Snider-Sabot?page=2#.VnqK-sqFOzk
and here's me a few years previous to him, thinking that I was the first: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1101/Using-Sabots-in-the-Snider-UPDATE#.VnqLSsqFOzk and http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=135&
The pics no longer work, but I have them somewhere on my computer.
The loads worked up were done methodically. I used what I had found in the Interwebs, which (like what I post) needs to be carefully parsed to remove the hearsay and nonsense, but also some of the load data that exists for the 24 ga shotgun. That data is useful as it is for a shotgun with a max pressure of ~12K psi, and the 24 ga shotshell closely approximates the 577 bore and case capacity. That's why 24 ga shotshells and brass is so widely used for the Snider - it's just a bit long, but is otherwise a very good fit. Using the 24 ga shotshells for load development offers another measure of safety, as if you exceed 12K psi by even a little, the very thin brass at the base deforms (i.e. flows), telling you to back off.
What I can't find is the 24 ga load data I had from "Ballistic Products". They still provide that, and it provides data for a decent variety of powders and payload weights (e.g. 3/4 oz and up) for the 24 ga shotgun, but you have to pay, and I'm not inclined to do that. It's about US$15:
I even went so far as to play with sabots in the Snider and posted to "British Militaria" with the usual "love it" and "never use smokeless in the Snider" responses. Here are a couple of threads that still exists in the Archives:
This guy thought he was the first to think of it: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/11104/577-Snider-Sabot?page=2#.VnqK-sqFOzk
and here's me a few years previous to him, thinking that I was the first: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1101/Using-Sabots-in-the-Snider-UPDATE#.VnqLSsqFOzk and http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=135&
The pics no longer work, but I have them somewhere on my computer.
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