Smokless in a BP

Attempting to change the method in which the manufacturer has suggested the use of their product has resulted in those big "WARNING" stamps all over firearms today. This has also made lawyers rich and given surgeons plenty of work in re-attachment of limbs and reconstructive facial surgery. I thank all those people that are dumb enough to try these things. With out them we wouldn't have all the Liberals and NDP's telling us how dangerous guns are in the hands of the Canadian people or "BoneHeads". Just keep pouring gas on that fire boys.
 
To anyone reading this thread; bigslide does NOT know what he's talking about, and is offering advice and assumptions that go against those of every powder and firearms manufacturer.

That post above is disaster waiting to strike. You can tell right from the very beginning, where he states the .375 H&H as a black powder round, which it NEVER has been. Cordite and black powder have NOTHING in common either, comparing loads of the two is asinine. Cordite was an early smokeless, with about as much in common with black powder and its pressure as a duck has in common with a buffalo.

NEVER, EVER use smokeless in a muzzle loader unless the manufacturer recommends it. Yes, I'm sure there are people in Georgia doing it without two brain cells to rub together, and they might continue to get away with it. Just because there are a group of people stupid enough to try it does NOT mean you should, or even talk about it for that matter. Theoretical discussions of this kind are seldom theoretical.

Contrary to what you may think, I do know what I'm talking about. Pressure is pressure. If a charge of BP generates a certain maximum pressure than producing that same pressure CURVE by another means (compressed air even) is going to have the same net effect.

Your breach plug will handle the pressure of a BP charge just fine. The savage breach plug will handle more. The savage breach plug will allow you to shoot hotter loads. BP generates a much spikier pressure curve than most smokeless powders with max pressure occuring very near ignition. Smokeless pressure reaches maximum much later. You're more likely to split the barrel than shoot a breach plug through your neck. How come you never hear about people putting a breach plug through their neck when they overcharge a muzzleloader or plug the barrel? Because it's not the weak point.

Go get a transducer and a spare tire and try it out. Just do it safely. It's not because people played around outside manufacturer's recommendations that the firearms industry is lawyered up - it's because people didn't do it safely. You're not going to get much higher than 15ksi out of a shotshell primer before you start popping the primer anyways.

Would you shoot any handload that wasn't listed in a reloading manual based on assumptions without doing it _safely_?

Also, for the record, I never said the 375 H&H was a black powder round. I said the round was designed for a BP rifle. I was mistaken. I was under the impression that it had followed the same path as the 303 british did with the Lee Metford. I did state the 375H&H was a cordite charged round - which has a similar pressure curve to BP - just not by weight or propellent. Cordite is very high in nitroglycerine. More like a duck and a giant goose using your above analogy...

Be safe.
 
Attempting to change the method in which the manufacturer has suggested the use of their product has resulted in those big "WARNING" stamps all over firearms today. This has also made lawyers rich and given surgeons plenty of work in re-attachment of limbs and reconstructive facial surgery. I thank all those people that are dumb enough to try these things. With out them we wouldn't have all the Liberals and NDP's telling us how dangerous guns are in the hands of the Canadian people or "BoneHeads". Just keep pouring gas on that fire boys.

Stop enabling. People are free to do stuff if they want to. It would be best if they'd take safety precautions. Government is not supposed to be a babysitter.
 
People don't listen to the poster above he is full of it.
BP cartridge guns have and are loaded with smokeless everyday, to about the same pressure as BP. Cartridge guns are a sealed breach you get predictable results every time, with open breach of a ML the results vary and are unpredictable. Burning rates of smokeless are dependent an sealed breech for predictable pressure build up.
Then there is a little thing called metal fatigue, just because nothing blowed up yet it don't mean it won't next time.
Hell few years ago when 150 grains of BP was all the rage (magnum muzzle loaders) there were some Spanish guns sold that couldn't take the pressure of that much black powder, and now you are going to mess with smokeless.
I have seen results of guys using smokeless in their muzzle loaders, blown barrel right in the chamber area and splinterd stock, and this was with Thompson Center not some cheep import.
 
People don't listen to the poster above he is full of it.
BP cartridge guns have and are loaded with smokeless everyday, to about the same pressure as BP. Cartridge guns are a sealed breach you get predictable results every time, with open breach of a ML the results vary and are unpredictable.
Then there is a little thing called metal fatigue, just because nothing blowed up yet it don't mean it won't next time.
Hell few years ago when 150 grains of BP was all the rage (magnum muzzle loaders) there were some Spanish guns sold that couldn't take the pressure of that much black powder, and now you are going to mess with smokeless.
I have seen results of guys using smokeless in their muzzle loaders, blown barrel right in the chamber area, and this was with Thompson Center not some cheep import.

Back to reality... I'm interested in real data and scientifically proven principals like yield strength. The metal in your muzzleloader will handle the same pressure no matter what's producing it. Sure, figuring out how to obtain that pressure experimentally is probably dangerous. You're on your own but that doesn't make it impossible.

Metal fatigue doesn't make a shred of difference if you're talking about the same or lower pressures than BP... 150 grains of BP blowing up some gun that couldn't handle it doesn't make a difference either. If the pressure is lower, the pressure is lower - it's just that simple.

Smokeless powder doesn't mean higher pressure - it just means less powder to produce the same pressure.

People use 2400 and blue dot in cap and ball revolvers. It's the same thing. It's just uncharted territory.

I'm sure these guys you saw using smokeless in their muzzleloaders are par for the course. I've seen people do dumb/dangerous stuff with modern rifles too. Just last weekend, I watched a fellow use a 2x4 to hammer open his bolt because his handloads were too hot and then continue shooting the same load. Anyone can blow up any gun. Shooting smokeless in a muzzleloader is just as dangerous as reloading any cartridge that you have no load data for.

Now look. I'm not telling anyone to do anything. What I'm saying is that it's possible to do it (smokeless in a muzzleloader) safely. If you choose slow powders and use data for similar cartridge loads and take the necessary precautions it's definately feasible.
 
Actually, no. On the first part, yes breech plugs let loose, their threads are actually one of the weakest parts of the pressure vessel. I can reference you to even a medical journal article on a breech plug killing a shooter by ending up in his brain, and multiple posts from people more fortunate.

Also, pressure is not just pressure. The way that pressure develops is critical as well. Ever noticed how certain machine parts specify certain bolt grades? That's because pure strength is not everything, but the way that bolt is used matters too. Sometimes a lower grade bolt will be specified and last longer than a high grade in a certain application.

Smokeless powder has a drastically different pressure curve for most powders than black powder, the pressure peak is later, and sharper. We are not firearms engineers, at least I don't think so, and using a propellant not designed for an application is, to use the same term again, asinine; whether you can get away with it 'most of the time' or not. Manufacturers say no. I have no reason to pull out a tire and string and try it. Why on earth would I? If I want to shoot smokeless, I shoot a modern gun. If I want to shoot black powder, I shoot a black powder muzzle loader or cartridge gun. If I want to shoot a muzzle loader with smokeless, there's a gun for that too, the Savage. Use the right combination of gun, pwder, and components and you'll never be dissappointed, or maim/kill yourself or others, or at best ruin your gun. There is just no reason.

Finally, .375 H&H was never designed for black powder firearms even. You are very clearly making assumptions. The .375 H&H was introduced in 1912, purely to smokeless powders (which include cordite), and nitro proofed actions. The Mauser M98 Magnum was its first chassis and the gun in which it was introduced by Holland & Holland. Not until the 1930's was it introduced in a new gun, the Winchester Model 70, also as I'm sure you know is a strong nitro proofed modern firearm and a far cry from a black powder firearm. So no, it was never a black powder round as you first stated, and never was designed for black powder actions as you've stated last. You're plain wrong and are spreading false info, based on your own incorrect personal assumptions. I don't like to try and be an internet tough guy, or speak ill of people, but your post might likely be one of the first I've written black with an explicit bold and red text warning. It's just plain dangerous, wrong, and it shines through with comments stated as facts such as your wildly off base .375 assumptions.

Contrary to what you may think, I do know what I'm talking about. Pressure is pressure. If a charge of BP generates a certain maximum pressure than producing that same pressure CURVE by another means (compressed air even) is going to have the same net effect.

Your breach plug will handle the pressure of a BP charge just fine. The savage breach plug will handle more. The savage breach plug will allow you to shoot hotter loads. BP generates a much spikier pressure curve than most smokeless powders with max pressure occuring very near ignition. Smokeless pressure reaches maximum much later. You're more likely to split the barrel than shoot a breach plug through your neck. How come you never hear about people putting a breach plug through their neck when they overcharge a muzzleloader or plug the barrel? Because it's not the weak point.

Go get a transducer and a spare tire and try it out. Just do it safely. It's not because people played around outside manufacturer's recommendations that the firearms industry is lawyered up - it's because people didn't do it safely. You're not going to get much higher than 15ksi out of a shotshell primer before you start popping the primer anyways.

Would you shoot any handload that wasn't listed in a reloading manual based on assumptions without doing it _safely_?

Also, for the record, I never said the 375 H&H was a black powder round. I said the round was designed for a BP rifle. I was mistaken. I was under the impression that it had followed the same path as the 303 british did with the Lee Metford. I did state the 375H&H was a cordite charged round - which has a similar pressure curve to BP - just not by weight or propellent. Cordite is very high in nitroglycerine. More like a duck and a giant goose using your above analogy...

Be safe.
 
Contrary to what you may think, I do know what I'm talking about. Pressure is pressure. If a charge of BP generates a certain maximum pressure than producing that same pressure CURVE by another means (compressed air even) is going to have the same net effect.

I don't usually get involved in this sort of thing, but I feel compelled to since someone might get killed if you listen to this guy.

Contrary to what you may think, you do not know what you are talking about. If I pressurize that steel tube to 20K psi with compressed air over a 10 minute period, it will probably hold together and not experience any metal fatigue. If I pressurize that tube to the same psi in two nanoseconds, all you are going to get is shrapnel.

Oh -and by the way, you have the relationship between smokeless and black powder regarding when max pressures occur backwards. Why do you think the 16" guns on the Missouri(?) used black powder for propellant? It's not like there wasn't the technology available for making different types of smokeless powder, it was the fact that if smokeless powder was used, the result would have blown up the boat.
 
If you loaded a triple charge of BP in these muzzleloders, it prolly wouldn't blowup because half of the powder would go out the end of the barrel unburnt. A triple charge of smokeless would result in something to read about on Monday morning.
 
I don't usually get involved in this sort of thing, but I feel compelled to since someone might get killed if you listen to this guy.
No one ever got killed by reading. Play safe and it's all good. The data I posted is watered down and cross checked against 3 different reloading tables to be plenty weak in an action only meant to handle 15ksi. Anyone who tries a reloading recipe from the internet and just tries it out without looking into it further is taking major risks. That said, I see no issues posting something if it's what I'd consider safe enough to try out myself. Anytime you handle loose powder and seat bullets you're taking matters into your own hands. This topic is no different than discussing a wildcat that no one has produced data for.

Contrary to what you may think, you do not know what you are talking about. If I pressurize that steel tube to 20K psi with compressed air over a 10 minute period, it will probably hold together and not experience any metal fatigue. If I pressurize that tube to the same psi in two nanoseconds, all you are going to get is shrapnel.
This is correct if there is plastic deformation involved. As long as deformation of the pressure vessel is completely elastic you can pressurize it in 2 pico-seconds and the only damage will be to the oriface... If you have plastic deformation happening in your firearms you have other things to worry about.

Oh -and by the way, you have the relationship between smokeless and black powder regarding when max pressures occur backwards.
Real world pressure data says otherwise. For example:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2295448&postcount=13

Plenty of other examples out there.

Ardent, lower bolt grades last longer if they're intended to handle a shear load (like wheel stud) vs. longitudinal load (like a cylinder head bolt). Pressure is just pressure if it's applied in the same way. I'm sure breech plugs can let go under the right circumstances. No doubt you'd want to take that into consideration if testing any of this. I admitted to making a bad recollection regarding the 375H&H above. It really changes nothing. There are plenty of BPCR and BP revolver actions being loaded today with appropriate charges of smokeless powder. The only difference is it isn't uncharted territory anymore.

Why would anyone want to do this? I don't know. I'm happy with 777 myself. Maybe some day I'll find a reason to try it out. The OP asked a simple question (Is it possible) and I tried to reason that of course it is. I went on a tangent and looked up some data. Anyone who actually loads it up better know they are doing something completely on their own with no guarantees. I'm pretty sure that falls into the "common sense" category, don't you think?

Ben, I think it would make a pretty good kabang. I've seen a couple of muzzleloaders split down the rifling - opened up and unwound just like elmer fudd's sxs.

Anyway, can we leave this as is unless anyone wants to contribute something productive? I really don't feel like arguing on the internet. Can we just agree to disagree?

If someone has the gumption, some transducers, a spare ML barrel and a safe way to test, maybe we'll get an hard answer some day.
 
I'm with bigslide on this...
As this is a "theoretical discussion" I will theorize hereafter.

I've been part of CGN for a while now and quite frankly I am absolutely tired of the proponderance of podium preachers who must literally sit on the edge of thier seat all day just waiting to pounce on some guy for the slightest hint of deviance from tradition. Well boys... I'm not scared... pounce away, but remember, if you dont have the goods to back it up, I'm comin after ya.

Sorry for the rant and on with my point.

If a guy was to seriously entertain smokeless powder in a breach loader I would theorize that it is absolutely possible to do and Bigslide is correct that seating depth is the primary issue.

Black powder explodes while smokeless powder burns progressively. Now, that being said, since black powder explodes anyway, it does not much matter that the bullet is seated tightly on top of it.

By contrast, smokeless powder burns progressively, but could react unpredictably if compressed. Thats why you dont want to jam the bullet right on top of it. Sooo seating depth is the primary diver here. If you could reliably control the seating depth you could "in theroy" use smokless powder.

As for blowing out the threads on your breach plug... Using smokeless powder is not all by itself going to be the reason you blow out the breach plug. A breach plug is more than capable of withstanding considerable pressure level or they would use something else. As with any hand loading effort you need to be mindfull of maximum load. Since you will not see the traditional signs of a hot load such as flat primers and swelled brass, your max pressure will be hard to read and I'm not sure how you could without a strain gage and some expensive electronics.

If you were you control seating depth by some attachment to the ram rod, I could accept that, but there would be danger that the bullet might move.

Another theoretical option might be the inserting of some sort of spacer under the bullet that would stop the bullet at a certain depth. On the other hand what if the bullet was to move forward somehow. Then you would have a problem again.

So in theory it is possible. In practice, it's risky but could be done.

Remember, there are old hand loaders and there are bold hand loaders, but there are no old bold handloaders.
 
People use 2400 and blue dot in cap and ball revolvers. It's the same thing. It's just uncharted territory.

2400 is a MAGNUM pistol powder producing high pressures. I use it in a S&W 29 44 mag but would never, ever, under any circumstances consider using it in a cap and ball gun.

The biggest issue here is that there are a lot of very poor quality muzzleloaders on the market. Savage and Bad Bull are the only two I know of who have specifically designed their guns for smokeless. Many of the spanish guns on the market were made of very poor steel and are unacceptable to even experiment with.....
 
One of my friends has been shooting smokeless in his traditions pursuit for a couple years . He has played with all kinds of different powder's in that thing , he even tried blue dot I think he said he got to 7 grains & he had to dig out the primer with a screw driver .

I am not certain what he is useing right now but I think he said IMR 3031 , I have seen him shoot it with whatever load he currently is useing & it shoot's great .

He did make a big boo boo with it last year , forgot to remove the ram rod before fireing , 250 grn bullet + 750 grn ram rod give or take .That scared the #### out of him , & he had to replace the firing pin but the rifle was otherwise unharmed .

I think that most modern black powder's are plenty strong enough but it's definatley not advised .
 
Back
Top Bottom