So much JUNK

I don't expect every seller to be Ian Skennerton, but if someone says "matching, all correct", then they should be prepared to post or share detailed photos so I can validate it myself before paying a very premium price.

For some reason, this is accepted as normal for K98k rifles, and almost not at all for any other milsurp by most sellers. I find it very odd.
 
I bought a K98 from a seller on here before (chronicled in this thread on CGN HERE ) who said "You saw the small ring inside? Rifle is shootable everything smooth". Once I received the gun I found it keyholed and had 10" groups at 25 yards. When I inquired to the seller he said "well, I didn't take it to the range to test for groups, I just loaded one round and it shot". He never once offered any sort of refund or after-the-fact discount

I learned a valuable lesson that day about buying online....
 
Suther said:
I have troubles believing "most" people selling a milsurp doesn't know what "numbers matching" means. I think you're giving to much credit to ignorance and not enough to intentional malice.

That said, i don't have a lot of sympathy for anyone who will drop $2500+ on a milsurp without doing their due diligence. Know what you're buying, between misleading ads, outright fakes (anyone can go buy a nazi eagle stamp online and add that to a Mauser to claim nazi provenance for example), and the odd person who doesn't know what they have, you'd be stupid to drop big money on a milsurp without either an expert opinion or doing your own research.
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Most people really don't know much about the firearms in their possession. I know plenty of people with milsurps, I only know a few I would consider collectors. Most just want something like what grandpa had in WWII like a Lee Enfield. They don't know much about variations, condition, or the history of the firearm. 'Numbers matching' for example really varies depending on the firearm being discussed. A German G98 for example has everything numbered. A Carcano has the barrel and stock numbered (possibly the bolt on a very early gun).

Potashminer said:
For sure is about whether the buyer does his research or not - as far as "numbers matching" - I have reached out to several posters on here who did not realize there are FOUR places on a P14 that have the serial number stamped - not just on the bolt handle and on the receiver. And then most all of the rest of the 80 odd parts (coil springs and screws normally excepted) have a maker's stamp that ought to go along with that receiver, to be "all matching". Such a thing might not even exist any more - but does not make a random rifle that happens to be at hand to be worth what some of us would pay for a genuine "all matching" - and there should be a LOT of questions to establish that to be genuine, before money changes hands.

Versus poorly done (or well done) milsurp conversions with bolt handles cut to be "scope friendly" and the receivers drilled and tapped, yet the rifle described as "ideal to restore", or not obvious at all how the original "swing over the top" safety was supposed to work when a scope gets installed. Is up to the buyer - sooner or later someone gets left holding that "hot potato" - whether that buyer, or someone he can sell it to. But I think is all on the buyer - they bought what they bought at whatever price - and got what they bought - whether that was what they thought it was or not.

Might be a shocking thought to some people, but some of us have many hundreds or thousands of dollars of reference books, that allow us to sort though what belongs with what - if those authors were correct. Or some will spend silly amounts of money, and just claim it to be what they think it is. As an example, for the common Lee Enfield No. 4 or No. 5 rifle, was 9 receiver patterns used at one time or another, 9 different variations of rear sight used by the six factories in various years, and at least four different kinds of wood used - and most all will interchange with the other - so is a specific combination that goes together to be "correct" and then multiple combinations that "work", but never existed in anyone's military.
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Exactly, sellers and buyers are generally fairly ignorant as to what is what. I am going to be honest and say there is plenty of milsurps I would not be comfortable with purchasing without a ton of research. Snipers, K98ks, etc.

R005t3r said:
I understand completely but after you have been disabused of your misconception wouldn't it behoove you to make the appropriate changes? The issue isn't ignorance, as I have previously stated, it is conscious misrepresentation and the fact that our moderators do nothing about it; even though it is clearly stated in the rules.
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Sometimes the person attempting to 'disabuse' someone of what a item is or isn't, isn't correct. I have seen people get taken advantage of by people claiming to be their buddy well stabbing them in the back to try and get a deal. At the end of the day if you don't want to buy it don't.
 
Claven2 said:
I think woke is a matter of perspective, and I think this place is a LOT less woke than, say, rabble.ca is.

If you think this place is too woke, nobody is forcing you to be here.
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So that's all you managed to extract from the premise. No one is forcing you to participate in this thread. Nice hijack though.
 
Potashminer said:
Might be a shocking thought to some people, but some of us have many hundreds or thousands of dollars of reference books, that allow us to sort though what belongs with what - if those authors were correct. Or some will spend silly amounts of money, and just claim it to be what they think it is. As an example, for the common Lee Enfield No. 4 or No. 5 rifle, was 9 receiver patterns used at one time or another, 9 different variations of rear sight used by the six factories in various years, and at least four different kinds of wood used - and most all will interchange with the other - so is a specific combination that goes together to be "correct" and then multiple combinations that "work", but never existed in anyone's military.
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Quite right. Buy a gun, buy a book. Not all the fine details regarding military rifles and their corresponding paraphernalia are available on the web. Managed to correct a few folks with misconceptions that way and save a ton of money.
 
R005t3r said:
So that's all you managed to extract from the premise. No one is forcing you to participate in this thread. Nice hijack though.
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It's not a hijack. You literally had this in your original post:

I have reported this behaviour and nothing is being done! However, should you offend someone or tread outside the woke agenda, there is a serious PeePee spank or you are simply banned.
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I also responded to other aspects of your post.

But sure, let's make me out to be off base when you opened the door yourself. Threads like this are why I post here so much less these days.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Most people really don't know much about the firearms in their possession. I know plenty of people with milsurps, I only know a few I would consider collectors. Most just want something like what grandpa had in WWII like a Lee Enfield. They don't know much about variations, condition, or the history of the firearm. 'Numbers matching' for example really varies depending on the firearm being discussed. A German G98 for example has everything numbered. A Carcano has the barrel and stock numbered (possibly the bolt on a very early gun).
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There is a big difference between knowing what numbers matching means in general, and knowing how that term applies to a specific gun/platform (eg where to look for said numbers, which ones are supposed to match vs which ones aren't supposed to, etc). I will believe that lots of people don't know where to look and due to that ignorance they misrepresent guns, but I would need more than anecdotal evidence to believe most people don't know what the term means or why it would add value to a gun.

Simply put I have troubles believing anyone would know to put it in an ad but have no idea what it means, it's pretty self explanatory.
 
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R005t3r said:
Compared to this example, for the $5K price tag, they are JUNK.
17.jpg
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Nice rifle.

Unfortunately it was "cleaned up".
 
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Suther said:
There is a big difference between knowing what numbers matching means in general, and knowing how that term applies to a specific gun/platform (eg where to look for said numbers, which ones are supposed to match vs which ones aren't supposed to, etc). I will believe that lots of people don't know where to look and due to that ignorance they misrepresent guns, but I would need more than anecdotal evidence to believe most people don't know what the term means or why it would add value to a gun.

Simply put I have troubles believing anyone would know to put it in an ad but have no idea what it means, it's pretty self explanatory.
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I remember having a debate on here where a guy had a Kar98AZ. It was all matching but the bayonet lug was broken. As he put it he could replace the lug. I informed him that the rifle would then not be all matching anymore. Didn't seem to care for that comment. Still was a nice example, but it is a good example of how people get caught up in terms. The whole reason all matching has value is because it is supposed to be as factory issued/refurbished. I personally prefer the term 'correct and all matching' due to the confusion that all matching can have. If you have a sporterized Lee Enfield but all parts that are there are matching is it not a 'all matching' rifle? Even though it isn't correct, they wouldn't be wrong in that assertation.

Some people also only consider a rifle all matching if it is as it left the factory, not refurbished or armorer repaired, etc. It really does have different meanings depending on who you are talking too.

Then you get things like assembly numbers on Arisakas or American firearms, etc. It isn't as self explanatory as it seems, and really comes down to what the firearm is and who made it. Its part of what I enjoy about milsurps is there is so much to try and learn about. Most people don't care to learn anything close to that. It is getting easier for many with the internet, but ignorance still abounds.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
I remember having a debate on here where a guy had a Kar98AZ. It was all matching but the bayonet lug was broken. As he put it he could replace the lug. I informed him that the rifle would then not be all matching anymore. Didn't seem to care for that comment. Still was a nice example, but it is a good example of how people get caught up in terms. The whole reason all matching has value is because it is supposed to be as factory issued/refurbished. I personally prefer the term 'correct and all matching' due to the confusion that all matching can have. If you have a sporterized Lee Enfield but all parts that are there are matching is it not a 'all matching' rifle? Even though it isn't correct, they wouldn't be wrong in that assertation.

Some people also only consider a rifle all matching if it is as it left the factory, not refurbished or armorer repaired, etc. It really does have different meanings depending on who you are talking too.

Then you get things like assembly numbers on Arisakas or American firearms, etc. It isn't as self explanatory as it seems, and really comes down to what the firearm is and who made it. Its part of what I enjoy about milsurps is there is so much to try and learn about. Most people don't care to learn anything close to that. It is getting easier for many with the internet, but ignorance still abounds.
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Lots of lee Enfield smle rifles are sold as all matching with clearly replaced wood, bolts serialized in different fonts, etc.

Most people can't recognize a refurb vs a factory gun across many milsurp models.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
I remember having a debate on here where a guy had a Kar98AZ. It was all matching but the bayonet lug was broken. As he put it he could replace the lug. I informed him that the rifle would then not be all matching anymore. Didn't seem to care for that comment. Still was a nice example, but it is a good example of how people get caught up in terms. The whole reason all matching has value is because it is supposed to be as factory issued/refurbished. I personally prefer the term 'correct and all matching' due to the confusion that all matching can have. If you have a sporterized Lee Enfield but all parts that are there are matching is it not a 'all matching' rifle? Even though it isn't correct, they wouldn't be wrong in that assertation.

Some people also only consider a rifle all matching if it is as it left the factory, not refurbished or armorer repaired, etc. It really does have different meanings depending on who you are talking too.

Then you get things like assembly numbers on Arisakas or American firearms, etc. It isn't as self explanatory as it seems, and really comes down to what the firearm is and who made it. Its part of what I enjoy about milsurps is there is so much to try and learn about. Most people don't care to learn anything close to that. It is getting easier for many with the internet, but ignorance still abounds.
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Yes - words have meanings, but we don't always share the same thought when we use the word. For example - could have picked up a rifle from an invasion beach from WWII - is, of course "authentic" - as in it was really a rifle used by a soldier in that conflict. But if an armourer had previously replaced the rear sight because it had been broken off - is no longer as it was, when it left the factory - so might no longer be "original" or words like that. Or that rear sight could have been replaced with a surplused spare part, in someone's workshop in the 1960's. "Original", "Matching", "Authentic", "Correct" appear to get used by some people as if they mean the same thing or are equivalent meanings, and then some of us do not think so.

I suspect what is really driving the OP's point though, is a seller deliberately trying to justify the excessive asking price, as if it was one thing, despite being told that was not correct.
 
Claven2 said:
Lots of lee Enfield smle rifles are sold as all matching with clearly replaced wood, bolts serialized in different fonts, etc.

Most people can't recognize a refurb vs a factory gun across many milsurp models.
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Now you're splitting hairs.

I do agree that factory original numbers would be considered as a priority for pricing "all matching numbers" firearms.

However, when any rifle goes through a proper "factory" FTR, where the existing numbers are scrubbed or stroked out and restamped with the original receiver number, about the only difference is "TIMING"

The restamped numbers just state that the rifle has been brought back to original factory specs and is a great indicator for a perspective purchaser, depending on what the rifle is being purposed for.

An ORIGINAL factory stamped firearm with all matching numbers would be considered for ''colletible purposes" then, an FTR rifle might be used to fill a gap, until an all original factory rifle can be found.

An FTR with all matching numbers/restamped etc would definitely be considered for the purpose of a shooter or a representative of the type, without further wearing/damaging a factory original, which may have been assembled with parts out of the same production runs as the FTR. Splitting hairs.

A good example of FTRs being indisquishable from a factory original would be the myriad of M94/38/96 Swede Mausers that came into Canada.

Many of those rifles went through several FTRs, had almost every part on them replaced at one time or another and the NOS replacement parts being stamped with original font numbers. The finishing methods were identical and to military specs if the arms were used for martial purposes.

The civilian used firearms showed mismathced parts numbers and different finish types. The list goes on
 
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Potashminer said:
I suspect what is really driving the OP's point though, is a seller deliberately trying to justify the excessive asking price, as if it was one thing, despite being told that was not correct.
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Precisely my point. I am grateful for the diverse opinions being expressed. Buyer beware but give me a break and don't deliberately misrepresent your item.
 
Unless I know the seller, or unless there are sufficient number of well taken photos, I've pretty much stopped buying milsurps online.
The last one I bought here was a Swedish M38. Met the seller with cash in hand for an "I'll take it" purchase, and as it turned out, someone had monkeyed with the trigger and sear.

So even if they look good, and everything appears on the 'up and up', there can be hidden issues that will bite you in the a$$.

Caveat Emptor
 
The big downside to this is that collectors just might be able (or want) to buy an item or two at $1000/$2000 a pop, but that collector sure isn't going to collect a safe full of them. New collectors will be priced out of the market before they even start.
 
bogusiii said:
The big downside to this is that collectors just might be able (or want) to buy an item or two at $1000/$2000 a pop, but that collector sure isn't going to collect a safe full of them. New collectors will be priced out of the market before they even start.
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I have been collecting for a bit over a decade now. I can afford to purchase but I have bigger priorities at the moment. Its easy to find 300$ to spend on a milsurp (I would be buying/selling/trading at least one a month when I started) vs spending 1k+ for a not so stellar example.

I got burned a few times starting out. At 300$ you can afford to take a loss or two. You learn more from those mistakes than what you do from a successful purchase. When its 1k+ and you find out its only worth 400$ on a good day that stings.
 
At $300 budget, a fella better be fascinated by the carcano platform in today's market.

10 years ago, we'd have said the same of mosin carbines. Nobody wanted one and they were cheap. I must have owned 50 different ones, perhaps more.
 
Claven2 said:
At $300 budget, a fella better be fascinated by the carcano platform in today's market.

10 years ago, we'd have said the same of mosin carbines. Nobody wanted one and they were cheap. I must have owned 50 different ones, perhaps more.
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I only been shooting 25 something years. Gun owner for going on 20 years. I remember buying a SKS and box of ammo for 75$, a lot of sporter Lee's for like 200$. Garands were maybe 600$.

Mosins 80$..

Just 4 years ago CT was selling SKS for 199, and SVT for 400$.
 
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