So much JUNK

[Eaglelord17]

At $300 budget, a fella better be fascinated by the carcano platform in today's market.

10 years ago, we'd have said the same of mosin carbines. Nobody wanted one and they were cheap. I must have owned 50 different ones, perhaps more.

Basically, or you save up. But that is the difference between buying 6-12 rifle in a year to 1-2 of those same rifles. Honestly most things I have seen recently haven't interested me enough to part with my money. Generally poorer quality condition with a astronomical price tag.

 

[kjohn]

It's not a hijack. You literally had this in your original post:



I also responded to other aspects of your post.

But sure, let's make me out to be off base when you opened the door yourself. Threads like this are why I post here so much less these days.

^^
I hear you.

 

[Light Infantry]

I have said this before.

The numbers change, but its the same old same old.

There are very few real collectors around in Canada. Most people, when it comes to collecting, are sheep. Its a herd mentality. Whatever is cool that week is what people buy. People are willing to pay more for a clapped out RC Mauser, then a minty South American Mauser. There are other examples.

People are willing to pay $350 for a piece of crap that is worth at most $200, but are unwilling to drop $500 for a fantastic specimen that is worth at least that if not more.

I see friends do more deals off-line than here, as i do as well.
I'm also looking at moving some of my more desirable pieces through a US auction site than here in Canada.

 

[Mike Webb]

TIMES HAVE CHANGED AND CONTINUE TO DO SO. Where milsurps are concerned the bargains of years ago are long gone. Russian Capture K98's are commandinding stupid prices when several years ago they were going for cheap. All about supply and demand. Even Moisin Nagants are climbing as supply is drying up.

 

[recce]

So much junk.

That's what the opinion of barrels of LE's for sale all over the place for $10 - $15 were.

 

[bearhunter]

I have said this before.

The numbers change, but its the same old same old.

There are very few real collectors around in Canada. Most people, when it comes to collecting, are sheep. Its a herd mentality. Whatever is cool that week is what people buy. People are willing to pay more for a clapped out RC Mauser, then a minty South American Mauser. There are other examples.

People are willing to pay $350 for a piece of crap that is worth at most $200, but are unwilling to drop $500 for a fantastic specimen that is worth at least that if not more.

I see friends do more deals off-line than here, as i do as well.
I'm also looking at moving some of my more desirable pieces through a US auction site than here in Canada.

LI, this isn't a diss but you have to take into account that there are approximately 35% more bipedal methane producers on the planet overall as well as North America, than when we first started to collect our specimens with care. There were also a lot more unissued or very lightly used firearms around back then.

Since then, they've been modified by different nations, issued by different nations, modified by commercial outlets and bubba, etc.

The Russian Captures, Chinese, South American, and other European knockoffs are all legitimate FTR or models and some nations even built their own variations, which are also legitimate.

Over the years, many milsurps have been destroyed by their owner nation's governments, simply because it was cheaper to destroy them than they were worth on the flooded surplus markets. A good example of this would be South Africa, Canada, Viet Nam, Cambodia and several European nations such as Greece and Turkey who just put them in piles, burned off the wood, then had a scrap dealer come in and take away the metal.

That's a major reason why the dregs of the lots have become so valuable to people that just want to experience or own these bits of history.

Modern bolt actions, derived from these specimen's original designs are IMHO far superior in many ways as sporting rifles but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy taking out an original martial Mauser/Lee Enfield/Martini/Arisaka/Krag/Reminton Rolling Block/Springfield Trap Door variant/Mosin or one of the others on a hunt where I know the shots won't be over 150yards or out of a tree stand/blind. They still do the job, if I can see the sights.

The biggest issue is making up ammunition for these old workhorses and making sure it's accurate enough for my purposes at those ranges.



That being said, The M91 Mauser rifles/Carbines I have are just to nice to take out into the field or even shoot at the range. I sold off the shooter grades.

Times are what they are, there are more wanna haves than there are firearms of some designs to go around and as such the pristine or collector grade firearms tend to stay within families to be handed down as valued inheritances, if the kids know what they're getting or are even interested other than the monetary gain, which we see fairly often these day on the EE.

 

[Light Infantry]

Didn't take it as a diss, but im not sure you got what I was saying. People have no clue what they are buying and just follow the flavour of the day. They will pass on a great collectable firearm and instead buy what everyone is buying, damn the price, damn the condition, and damn the provenance. Because you just gotta buy what all the cool kids are buying.
I do agree that there a lot less good milsurps out there for more collectors, but that don't excuse them for not buying a better quality firearm and that doesn't mean buying pristine.

 

[MosinMan13]

Didn't take it as a diss, but im not sure you got what I was saying. People have no clue what they are buying and just follow the flavour of the day. They will pass on a great collectable firearm and instead buy what everyone is buying, damn the price, damn the condition, and damn the provenance. Because you just gotta buy what all the cool kids are buying.
I do agree that there a lot less good milsurps out there for more collectors, but that don't excuse them for not buying a better quality firearm and that doesn't mean buying pristine.

Unless that person just wants what they want, and sometimes that’s all that’s all there is to it. I’ve known guys, heck even I’ve done it’s who bought a rifle because the serial number was cool. I’ve purchased a rifle despite the condition before because the serial number was 777. I don’t care if that’s stupid, I liked it, that was why I collected it. In the end I sold that rifle for twice what I paid for it only 4 years down the road, despite having a force marched magazine and a counter bore, because the particular model became scarce to find, even though there is a readily available model of similar variant from a neighbouring nation, which is known for higher quality, numbers matching, unissued collectors grade quality. I also didn’t hide any of this info from the buyer, but the cost of everything is up, and he made an informed decision, and bought what he couldn’t find but was waiting for, at a price he agreed was fair in the current day.

I don’t think either of us contributed to the degradation of your world, even though it fits the description.

To be clear on the original page of this entire thread, I do not condone false or misleading information on EE items of any category, especially when you’re leveraging the age or collectibility against the rifle.

I also think it’s walked a fine line where people are being witch trialed because the value of their otherwise common or less mint milsurps has gone up, because the supply only gets smaller, but the demand has increased. I just think it’s on the verge of bigotry to shame people for wanting nice things but having their own idea of what’s nice, or spending/asking what makes sense in a market they don’t control, especially if it’s just because it doesn’t coincide with your values.

 

[Light Infantry]

Unless that person just wants what they want, and sometimes that’s all that’s all there is to it. I’ve known guys, heck even I’ve done it’s who bought a rifle because the serial number was cool. I’ve purchased a rifle despite the condition before because the serial number was 777. I don’t care if that’s stupid, I liked it, that was why I collected it. In the end I sold that rifle for twice what I paid for it only 4 years down the road, despite having a force marched magazine and a counter bore, because the particular model became scarce to find, even though there is a readily available model of similar variant from a neighbouring nation, which is known for higher quality, numbers matching, unissued collectors grade quality. I also didn’t hide any of this info from the buyer, but the cost of everything is up, and he made an informed decision, and bought what he couldn’t find but was waiting for, at a price he agreed was fair in the current day.

I don’t think either of us contributed to the degradation of your world, even though it fits the description.

To be clear on the original page of this entire thread, I do not condone false or misleading information on EE items of any category, especially when you’re leveraging the age or collectibility against the rifle.

I also think it’s walked a fine line where people are being witch trialed because the value of their otherwise common or less mint milsurps has gone up, because the supply only gets smaller, but the demand has increased. I just think it’s on the verge of bigotry to shame people for wanting nice things but having their own idea of what’s nice, or spending/asking what makes sense in a market they don’t control, especially if it’s just because it doesn’t coincide with your values.

Not sure what you are trying to say, you quoted me, but you didnt really respond to what I said?

But to address your first sentence. Its not what they want, but what others want and they follow them, and the herd just grows. Anyhow, you are pulling up a couple specific type instances. I am referring to trends in the market. Also when it comes to buying a piece of crap for $500 when its worth a lot less or something "nice" for $600 and its fairly priced, it seems people will be the garbage piece. I see it all the time here on the board. Nice pieces stay up forever and garbage flies out of the door in no time.

But anyway, to each his own. It leaves nice pieces for the real smart collectors. Now many are trying to offload garbage due to things getting tight and its starting to show they arent really selling that quick.

 

[partial]

Not sure what you are trying to say, you quoted me, but you didnt really respond to what I said?

But to address your first sentence. Its not what they want, but what others want and they follow them, and the herd just grows. Anyhow, you are pulling up a couple specific type instances. I am referring to trends in the market. Also when it comes to buying a piece of crap for $500 when its worth a lot less or something "nice" for $600 and its fairly priced, it seems people will be the garbage piece. I see it all the time here on the board. Nice pieces stay up forever and garbage flies out of the door in no time.

But anyway, to each his own. It leaves nice pieces for the real smart collectors. Now many are trying to offload garbage due to things getting tight and its starting to show they arent really selling that quick.

"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

I wouldn't qualify other people's "collection" as junk.

If the nice pieces stay forever, then I consider this a good "problem", as they will be available to the people who collect them.

I never understood why someone would buy crappy Carcanos by the dozen, or RC K98ks in questionable condition.
However I completely respect their choices, they see the beauty in their purchase, and that is all what counts.

 

[MosinMan13]

Not sure what you are trying to say, you quoted me, but you didnt really respond to what I said?

But to address your first sentence. Its not what they want, but what others want and they follow them, and the herd just grows. Anyhow, you are pulling up a couple specific type instances. I am referring to trends in the market. Also when it comes to buying a piece of crap for $500 when its worth a lot less or something "nice" for $600 and its fairly priced, it seems people will be the garbage piece. I see it all the time here on the board. Nice pieces stay up forever and garbage flies out of the door in no time.

But anyway, to each his own. It leaves nice pieces for the real smart collectors. Now many are trying to offload garbage due to things getting tight and its starting to show they arent really selling that quick.

Sorry that’s what I was trying to get at when I bolded specifically what I was trying to address. It’s the criteria for collecting I guess, if anything I’m asking why does anyone get the right to decide the standards of a collector? What gives anyone the power to say their reasons or standards of collecting are the right and only way? If a rifle is more rare, more pristine, that’s fine, you can have all the books in the world, but if nobody wants it, it’s not collectable, it is the junk.

Knowing every ounce of history and having the most prestigious collection of artifacts in any given field doesn’t make you the model of all collectors. It makes you a historian and a curator.

You can collect all manors of thing, for any number of reasons, with any criteria you see fit, as per the OPs original post, you can sell those things but so long as you fairly and accurately represent what you’re selling.

What I don’t agree with is the narrative that people shouldn’t be aloud to collect and find value in things that don’t meet someone else’s high standards.

If someone wants to pay $600 for a $300 rifle, then that’s what it’s worth in that instance. If the similar rifles start raising in price across the board, that’s simply supply and demand.

If people are choosing the $300 for $600 over the “superior” $500 rifle, that doesn’t make them stupid or their taste in rifles junk, that’s what they want, don’t be so bitter, either enjoy what you like or don’t.

 

[Light Infantry]

Whoa. I think you are reading way too much into my comments. I really don't care what people buy nor do I judge what they buy. All I'm sayng is that a lot of people follow the herd, don't have a plan for their collection and don't properly assess their options.
Regardless of cost, junk is still junk at the end of the day. Affordability is not the issue. It's about critical thinking and weighing all the pros and cons.
The ones that are bitter are the ones who decided to splurge on junk and are pissed 5 years later because it hasn't appreciated in value.

Bitter? Me? Nah! It actually works in my and other collector's favour to have the herd behave the way they do. They miss out on gems, and will buy my stuff as I upgrade a particular price at a much higher amount which was solely driven by them.
The herd is also the 1st to complain about dishonesty (the original intent of the OP). They don't research. Scream "I'll take it", and then have immediate buyer's remorse or will have down the road.

Like I said , I'm not slagging anyone, just highlighting what I see out there and the attitudes. I see this bs all the time. As for dishonesty, go see a gun show. I only interfere(subtly I might add) when its a young buyer, who obviously is new and is being hoodwinked by the seller. Usually all it takes is a subtle question on my part when the seller spits out some bs comment. The implication is there without calling out the seller. Some go on the offensive, some back right down and correct their comments. I have had a lot of more experienced collectors help me when I was new to the game and they saved me from wasting a lot of money. You might be ok for someone unknowingly buy garbage because you feel thqts their perogative, but when it comes to young newbys I won't stand by because if I did, where does that put this hobby in the end?

Anyhow I'm wandering around a bit trying to answer the initial post and other items that came up.

 

[jonnyboy1014]

The options are getting slimmer and slimmer as time passes so of course milsurp gar age is going to go up in price

 

[dgradinaru]

I have said this before.

The numbers change, but its the same old same old.

There are very few real collectors around in Canada. Most people, when it comes to collecting, are sheep. Its a herd mentality. Whatever is cool that week is what people buy. People are willing to pay more for a clapped out RC Mauser, then a minty South American Mauser. There are other examples.

People are willing to pay $350 for a piece of crap that is worth at most $200, but are unwilling to drop $500 for a fantastic specimen that is worth at least that if not more.

I see friends do more deals off-line than here, as i do as well.
I'm also looking at moving some of my more desirable pieces through a US auction site than here in Canada.

I find this mind boggling. 1500-1600$ for RC K98K's when you can get the South American Mauser's in good-mint condition with matching numbers for around the same price. What ever floats their boat, the more left for us the merrier.

 

[9.3 Hunter]

Whine .... jeeze whiz and golly

 

[Suther]

I find this mind boggling. 1500-1600$ for RC K98K's when you can get the South American Mauser's in good-mint condition with matching numbers for around the same price. What ever floats their boat, the more left for us the merrier.

If your collecting interest is German guns, then South American Mausers don't matter. If your collecting interest is ww1 or ww2, again, South American Mausers don't matter. Far more people have collections focused on things like WW1, WW2, Germany, etc than South American guns. Its simple supply and demand really.

 

[R005t3r]

It actually works in my and other collector's favour to have the herd behave the way they do. They miss out on gems, and will buy my stuff as I upgrade a particular price at a much higher amount which was solely driven by them.
The herd is also the 1st to complain about dishonesty (the original intent of the OP). They don't research. Scream "I'll take it", and then have immediate buyer's remorse or will have down the road.

Like I said , I'm not slagging anyone, just highlighting what I see out there and the attitudes. I see this bs all the time. As for dishonesty, go see a gun show. I only interfere(subtly I might add) when its a young buyer, who obviously is new and is being hoodwinked by the seller. Usually all it takes is a subtle question on my part when the seller spits out some bs comment. The implication is there without calling out the seller. Some go on the offensive, some back right down and correct their comments. I have had a lot of more experienced collectors help me when I was new to the game and they saved me from wasting a lot of money. You might be ok for someone unknowingly buy garbage because you feel that's their prerogative, but when it comes to young newbys I won't stand by because if I did, where does that put this hobby in the end?

Thank you for understanding, clarifying and furthering my point. It is not an arrogant pursuit of proselytizing the assumed superiority complex of the 'Collectors' but the demand for integrity in the market that feeds a hobby that should be pleasurable and occasionally profitable. We all share our knowledge because not one of us can know every detail regarding military surplus firearms and their commensurate accessories. Sometimes that means people calling you an your 5h1t. If learn something in the process, even if only humility, I'm okay with that.

 

[tokguy]

It is never a good look to come across as 'high headed' about one's collecting habits.
I have been know to throw a M10 Ross in the vehicle when I go work.
Glad you have a pristine full length unit at home in the safe...oh, OK...its spends most of it life there? I do stuff with mine...shoot the odd deer or elk. Even a coyote now and again.
Not a collector by a few folks' standard here. I have almost the 180° view. If I can't take it for a casual stroll or for a truck gun...it's pretty much useless.
Like a freaking trophy wife, looks great, pristine example and good for...well, not much.
I appreciate it when Rooster ( or fellas like him) throws up nice pictures or details about particular pieces...eye candy.
And BTW Rooster, I used the parts reciever I got from you to get my Carcano going...worked great. Not really in a hurry to put it up here...it's pretty tough looking.
Not totally removed from reality, no-one really wants to look at a Cooey on here. But, strangely enough... if I throw it in for a truck gun...everyone wants to see it in person.
Easy to 'be a Stain' to folks online...we would likely not act that way in person.
So I don't do it anymore... I just accumulate sporters of interesting flavors, use and enjoy them immensely.
Just as likely the 'High End Collectors' probably pull out their prized pieces and show them to friends or us lucky folks on here.
Must be the Ides of March going on. Can we get back enjoying and showing off Milsurp pieces now?

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Most people are not educated on milsurps. Most do not know what to look for or what makes specific variations valuable. Most simply know the phrase 'all matching' equals more value, and don't understand what it means or why it is more valuable. People see a all matching Lee Enfield No. 1 Mk. 3* in great shape for 1600$ and think hey my rifle is a No. 1 Mk. 3* therefore it must be worth 1600$ as well, despite being in much worse condition and mismatched. But because enough buyers don't know what they are looking at either they purchase it for that price as well.

Asking prices seem to be a self fulfilling circle. People see high asking prices so they ask for high prices. I get the feeling most of those rifles aren't selling.

The guy asking big coin for the Siamese LE is out of his mind. There were several of them on GP a few months ago in the $1000 - $1300 range. They aren't nearly as rare as buddy thinks.

I bought an Irish No4 Mk2 for $1100 yet there is a guy who has had one posted for months at $2500. Just cause he is asking that much doesn't mean anyone will pay that much.

I wouldn't mind a nice No1 Mk3 but I'm not paying $1500 for one ... even if that's what everyone is asking. I'll bide my time and see if one I like sits around for a while and then offer the guy a more reasonable price around $1000. The seller can make a sale at the lower price or he can hold on to the thing at an inflated asking price.

 

[Raton57]

I was looking for another 303 and one was dropped in my lap Sunday . Cost me $150 and I bought it for the oddity of being a No 5 but you would only know it was if you knew what one was . Never seen a gun butchered like that before. Oddest thing I ever seen .