So, What's a good group size?

J_Scott

J_Scott

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Apologies if I missed a sticky on this. But I've returned to pistol shooting this year and I'm feeling I'm shooting pretty well with the new HK P30L for the first day at the range. I'm not trying to be an IPSC calibre shooter (well, I guess I'm trying to be as good as I can), but I need a frame of reference to know if I'm absolute ####, or actually improving. This is where I'm at now... what should I strive for at 10-25 yards?

here are some targets:
10 rnds 10 yards
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10 (I'd like to pretend it was 5) at 25 yards, but there was a 6th and 7th round in the white. ;)

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My shooting

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Use a smaller target (easiest way going to reduce your group size), try shooting at 3x5 index cards - if you can keep 10 shots on a 3x5 card at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards, you're a shooter. If you can do it at speed, you're a good shooter, if you can do it at high speed, while moving or from unorthodox shooting positions, you're a very good shooter. From that picture, from what I can see, you're not square to the target, you don't have enough extension in your arms, and your wrist on your support side (or your 'other' strong hand) isn't fully extended. From the support wrist issue, I'd suspect your support hand grip isn't what it should be. If you get a chance, go to Abby on a "Skills and Drills" night, and your group size will shrink noticeably because you're not that far away. It's minor tweaks - but you can't fix it without someone who knows spotting it for you.
 
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Thanks bud. I know I have a lot of work to do. Unfortunately Abby is 4 hours away. I'm going to watch as many vids as I can. I think I'll keep the big targets so at least I know I'm hitting something. ;)
 
Those are not extraordinarily good groups but they're better than 95% of what I see at my range. ;)

(Perfect) Practice makes perfect.
 
Well it was the first/second time shooting a pistol in probably a year or two. So yeah I felt good. I love the p30L. Absolutely love it. Just don't shoot aluminum in it. ;)
 
Wow, lots of diff opinions.

I say that it is a balance between speed and accuracy. What are you trying to do? If it is just accuracy then you can do a lot better on the group. If you dumped the 10 rounds in 2 seconds and thats your group then it is pretty darn good.

+1 to Dietz though. Practice makes perfect. And I dont think ANYONE is perfect. well.... maybe Jerry M..... but it took into the millions of rounds to get that good.
 
Speaking of shooting money. If you have a buddy to compete with, my brother and I would hang $5 bills at 15 yards and aim at those. The guy who got the most hits got the fiver. Nothing better than taking a few bucks off your older brother.
Aim small, miss small.
 
Let's be clear, I know that those groups aren't great. It's just to let you know where I'm at. I'd say that's pretty slow shooting, like 10 rounds in 8-9 seconds.
 
When reading handgun reviews in journals and magazines, most service type handguns (Glocks, Sigs etc) seem to shoot about 2.5 to 4 inch groups at 25 yds from a Ransom mechanical rest. So, theoretically that would be the best any of us could do.
 
Funny, I get tighter groups when I shoot at speed. Is that odd? (I dont mean to hijack the thread btw)
 
zupermann said:
When reading handgun reviews in journals and magazines, most service type handguns (Glocks, Sigs etc) seem to shoot about 2.5 to 4 inch groups at 25 yds from a Ransom mechanical rest. So, theoretically that would be the best any of us could do.
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I agree with zupermann, if you want to get better buy a 22 so you can practice more. If you want to get even better start shooting bullseye. From the pictures you are showing I would say you are doing real well for starting out.
 
I have been looking at a .22 pistol. But I'm going to wait until a friend buys one as he's looking intently. I can't hide ANOTHER gun from my wife. ;)

...

well, maybe I can. It's kind of funny, most of my friend's wives don't want guns in the house because they're "scary" or "dangerous". My wife is just sick of me spending money like a rapper with a record deal!
 
A good group at 10 yards would be just a little bigger than the quarter you used for reference. Not ragging on you, just sayin'.

A couple of hints if I may. First off lose the gloves. Unless you're wearing them because it's freakin' cold out ditch them and shoot bare handed so you can both feel the grip on your gun better as well as breaking any link between your trigger finger moving and the motion affecting the rest of your hand. Later on when you are shooting quarter size groups you can try the gloves again and see if they make any difference.

Second work on a follow through with your trigger finger. When you pull the trigger don't snatch at it. Just build pressure on the trigger and let it move where and when it wants. Don't try to force the movement. And don't pull to the BANG! then let go. Follow through the BANG! by holding the trigger back through the recoil. Your finger should still be back when the gun has settled down again. Then with the same care ease up on the pressure and let the trigger return spring push your finger back forward. Feel for the reset click. When you feel that you can stop the release of pressure and go back to a build up of pressure.

Pulling the trigger this way and focusing on pulling smoothly through to the rear trigger travel stop instead of to the BANG! really helps you to stop any flinch you may have.

Also ease up your grip to the sort of pressure you'd use for a firm but friendly handshake. If you hold too hard it becomes difficult to isolate your trigger finger from the other fingers moving as well in sympathy. If in doubt ease up the pressure until the gun moves around in your hands with every shot. Then up the pressure to where it just stops moving around. Add a little more pressure than that and you're there.
 
J_Scott said:
I think I'll keep the big targets so at least I know I'm hitting something. ;)
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Shooting is a simple task, complicated by vital psychological processes. The smaller target isn't something you'll always hit, but if you're aiming at it, your group size will decrease, by decreasing the size of your aiming mark. By all means, put the small aiming mark on a bigger target, your groups will look terrific. This is what's known as 'aim small, miss small'. Give it a try once, you won't want to use a large aiming mark ever again. When I'm shooting for pure accuracy on a large target, I try to narrow my aiming mark to the smallest detail I can identify, even if that's just the last bullet hole.
 
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OP I'll echo the good advice you've already received, and add a little trick that helped me as well. If you go out shooting with your buddy play chase the round. One of you shoots, then the other tries to get their shot to touch the first hole. You'll want to start out a little closer than 10yds though, but you'll find after a while that you'll be better at hitting exactly where you aim. Not to mention it's a lot more fun to make it a competition.
 
Thanks guys, and don't worry BCrider, I'm not sensitive about my shooting, I'm here because I KNOW I need improvement. :) All great advice. It was cold that day, but I'll lose the gloves. Also I'm probably holding too tight because I was stove piping all day with the aluminum ammo, now with brass I can probably worry less about Limpwristing.

And I'll switch to a smaller target. I never thought of those reasons for it enefgee.

Oh and I did think of a couple games to play. ;)
 
I suggest you wear muffs. Bones transmit sound. Noise hurts your ears, your hearing and does not help grouping.

Your groups are not bad. Would be better than most of the guys I see shooting. make sure you focus on the front sight. Some time with a real coach would be very valuable, before you learn bad habits.
 
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