Soft lead for big old antiques?

[nanuk]

1400fps might be possible with pure lead but there are many contributing factors like bore fit and condition etc. 20-1 is a tried and true solution for these guns that goes back at least 150 years. The tin also makes it easier to get nice fill out when casting.

Tin can be bought from Western Metals and other places. The best is to watch junk stores and garage sales for solder and pewter. Yomomma was selling some pewter at one point.

and yet muzzleloaders far exceed that with pure

things that make you go Hmmm.....

Since tin is softer then lead almost it's not going to harden the bullets it just makes the molds fill better. Use some wheel weights to harden it a bit instead.

Really?

 

[yomomma]

Since tin is softer then lead almost it's not going to harden the bullets it just makes the molds fill better. Use some wheel weights to harden it a bit instead.

lead is 4-5 bhn, tin is 7bhn

 

[vagrantviking]

Traditional muzzleloader velocities max out around 1600-1800fps if I recall and those are shooting a paper or patch jacketed projectile. Maxi or Minie bullets aren't going that fast. Neither are most big bore bpcr cartridges.
Modern muzzleloaders can reach 2000fps plus but they aren't shooting pure lead or using real black powder for that matter.

 

[fingers284]

Dragon lube is what I got for these, the 50-70 is an 1860s rifle so going to stick with holy black with it and was debating the same with the 71/84 mauser sporter.

Ok, so going to track down some pewter or solder to mix in and make an alloy.

I have a bunch of 0.515 450gr bullets i cast up already, I will give them a try and see how badly they lead.

Another thought I had for the 50-70 was powder coating, I have all the stuff for it but have not tried it myself. Powder coating may help with the slight pitting in the 50-70 bore but also feels very wrong.[/QUOTE]

and that is the solution to your issue....how can it "feel wrong" when it is the simplest avenue to success.

 

[jethunter]

I also have a bunch of 6% antimony lead, hard stuff.

Based on this calculator https://www.weatherby.dk/bhn.htm if I mix 1lb of my dead soft stuff with 0.25lb of the super hard stuff I should get a hardness of around 10, which is similar to 20/1, but would the antimony in there matter?

I do that, it works well. Might not fill out as nicely as tin but can fix that by running hotter, and adjusting cooling time.

 

[fingers284]

"Thanks for that guys, that is a formula I intended to ask the forum about". I have about 300 lbs of pure ingots made and was just gifted about 38 lbs of extra hard shot that I panned on melting down to harden some of that pure, now i have a starting point...4 x 38 = 150 lbs of pure = 188 lbs of COWW equivalent for rifle slugs.

 

[Fox]

"Thanks for that guys, that is a formula I intended to ask the forum about". I have about 300 lbs of pure ingots made and was just gifted about 38 lbs of extra hard shot that I panned on melting down to harden some of that pure, now i have a starting point...4 x 38 = 150 lbs of pure = 188 lbs of COWW equivalent for rifle slugs.

I wish you were close to me, I would trade you hard lead for lead shot, a bit too far of a drive though

 

[tokguy]

Dragon lube is what I got for these, the 50-70 is an 1860s rifle so going to stick with holy black with it and was debating the same with the 71/84 mauser sporter.

Ok, so going to track down some pewter or solder to mix in and make an alloy.

I have a bunch of 0.515 450gr bullets i cast up already, I will give them a try and see how badly they lead.

Another thought I had for the 50-70 was powder coating, I have all the stuff for it but have not tried it myself. Powder coating may help with the slight pitting in the 50-70 bore but also feels very wrong.

Powder Coating is easy as heck.
Hit Princess Auto for your color, I believe that different colors give different thicknesses BTW.
I need a margarine tub for initial application. My oven is a motorcycle license plate and an old Edwards coffee can. I only do 20-30 at a time a couple times a year mind you.
Static the powder on, stack the bullets on the plate, slide it almost all the way in. Leave about a 1" gap from bottoming into the can. It ovals the can a touch, helps it to not roll.
Heat gun on the bottom level, til they turn shiny.
Let 'em cool, load 'em and shoot 'em.
Like falling off a log

 

[Goex]

.
Reality in Practise:

Every spring the Independent Grocers sell whole sides of Pork for around $40...buy a couple and hang them out at 50 yds.

Then shoot them with your .50 or .58 cal cast lead bullets. Try both soft, slightly slower lead and the other with harder, slightly faster lead.

Then evaluate the damage done to the meat and bone to visually evaluate which bullets (soft or hard) made significant differences for hunting game.

Target shooting paper for accuracy is one thing, but these old guns were designed to kill meat...use what works best

 

[jethunter]

.
Reality in Practise:

Every spring the Independent Grocers sell whole sides of Pork for around $40...buy a couple and hang them out at 50 yds.

Then shoot them with your .50 or .58 cal cast lead bullets. Try both soft, slightly slower lead and the other with harder, slightly faster lead.

Then evaluate the damage done to the meat and bone to visually evaluate which bullets (soft or hard) made significant differences for hunting game.

Target shooting paper for accuracy is one thing, but these old guns were designed to kill meat...use what works best

O you have a link or address for where can I find the whole sides of pork?

 

[Goex]

O you have a link or address for where can I find the whole sides of pork?

Costco and Independent both sell whole full Pork Shoulders. I think you can buy 1/2 full lamb at Costco as well.

 

[iron cat]

Personally I never worried too much about the lead alloy for my cartridge guns, normally about 20:1with pure lead and 60:40 ( I think ) solder.
Works just fine especially with powder coated bullets .
My round ball muzzle loaders take pure lead or as pure as I can get it !LOL
Cat

 

[Fox]

Powder Coating is easy as heck.
Hit Princess Auto for your color, I believe that different colors give different thicknesses BTW.
I need a margarine tub for initial application. My oven is a motorcycle license plate and an old Edwards coffee can. I only do 20-30 at a time a couple times a year mind you.
Static the powder on, stack the bullets on the plate, slide it almost all the way in. Leave about a 1" gap from bottoming into the can. It ovals the can a touch, helps it to not roll.
Heat gun on the bottom level, til they turn shiny.
Let 'em cool, load 'em and shoot 'em.
Like falling off a log

Well I do not want to powder coat for this gun, so that is the first reason.

The major one though is that this original pre 1870 rifle will never shoot smokeless powder while I own it, powder coat does not keep the black powder residue soft, so there is that.

 

[Andy]

It's pressure, more than MV that's the major factor, although they are related. With increased hardness, you can increase pressure and velocity. That said, pure lead has a BHN of about 5 and a pressure limit of about 10K psi. I think you'll need at least 15K pressure to move most bullets to 1400 fps in both those guns, so you'll likley need to use straight Wheelweight (air-cooled, not quenched), or 20:1 (or higher) to reach a BHN of about 10. You can play with powders and bullet weights to achieve 1400 fps.

 

[Fox]

It's pressure, more than MV that's the major factor, although they are related. With increased hardness, you can increase pressure and velocity. That said, pure lead has a BHN of about 5 and a pressure limit of about 10K psi. I think you'll need at least 15K pressure to move most bullets to 1400 fps in both those guns, so you'll likley need to use straight Wheelweight (air-cooled, not quenched), or 20:1 (or higher) to reach a BHN of about 10. You can play with powders and bullet weights to achieve 1400 fps.

The 50-70 is only running around 1200fps, 1150-1250 realistically, so I think soft lead there. For the 43 I will probably have to bump up to a little harder, I have some wheel weights but could also look at making an alloy as above.

 

[iron cat]

Well I do not want to powder coat for this gun, so that is the first reason.

The major one though is that this original pre 1870 rifle will never shoot smokeless powder while I own it, powder coat does not keep the black powder residue soft, so there is that.

I use clear powder coat al the bullets for my 8.15X46r, 40/65 , 9.3X72R, and 577 Snider.
PC is a lot less messy and more reliable as far as keeping fouling down than any lube i have ever tried, and it is very easy to do.
When I first started my testing with it, I was amazed at just how much cleaner my guns shot.
The clear powder coat still gives you the traditional look as well.
Cat

 

[Fox]

I use clear powder coat al the bullets for my 8.15X46r, 40/65 , 9.3X72R, and 577 Snider.
PC is a lot less messy and more reliable as far as keeping fouling down than any lube i have ever tried, and it is very easy to do.
When I first started my testing with it, I was amazed at just how much cleaner my guns shot.
The clear powder coat still fives you the traditional look as well.
Cat

From what I have been reading, across the board true BP needs the lube, powder coat without lube does not seem to work well with true black powder. I guess it is different for pyrodex and other substitutes but not true black.

The nice thing, I do not need to size these bullets, they load as cast with pan lubing.

 

[iron cat]

From what I have been reading, across the board true BP needs the lube, powder coat without lube does not seem to work well with true black powder. I guess it is different for pyrodex and other substitutes but not true black.

The nice thing, I do not need to size these bullets, they load as cast with pan lubing.

I don't size my bullets and rarely lube them, but get excellent offhand results at 200 meters with my cartridge guns. I don't use Pyrodex , just black powder except in my 8.15x46r shuetzen which I use 4227 in.
Cat

 

[oldrodder]

Well I do not want to powder coat for this gun, so that is the first reason.

The major one though is that this original pre 1870 rifle will never shoot smokeless powder while I own it, powder coat does not keep the black powder residue soft, so there is that.

And that's why I powder coat AND lube with PB lube. I do this because I don't want to inventory the same bullet twice. The same bullet is loaded with both smokeless and BP.

 

[Fox]

And that's why I powder coat AND lube with PB lube. I do this because I don't want to inventory the same bullet twice. The same bullet is loaded with both smokeless and BP.

So if I am powder coating and lubing for BP use then why bother powder coating? Powder coating is to increase the velocity and keep from needing to lube, but when they are lubed for BP then they have a soft lube that is only good to 1400fps or so.

I get how you want to be able to use the same for both but in a case like mine that would just be extra work and extra sizing.