So I'd like some help figuring this out here. I've done hours and hours of research trying to figure this out, and I can't quite figure out where I might be going wrong, and if I can possibly load a little hotter.
First off, I'd like to state that I'm aware of the risks and the safety procedures for loading these cartridges with smokeless. The MkII cartridges were originally Cordite-loaded, and the factory Fiocchi ammo is loaded with smokeless to the best of my knowledge. I have read the threads about reloading BP rounds with smokeless and, while this may not exactly apply, I understand that some may be apprehensive about loading these cartridges with smokeless, but I'm ok with it. Please don't turn this thread into a thread about smokeless vs. black, I just want some help/advice here on getting these things shooting better.
So basically what I've done is I got some Hornady .454 Cowboy bullets, 255 grain, Soft lead, flat point, with the knurled sides. I made up 50 rounds with Trailboss, 50 with Unique, and 50 with Bullseye. Did between 6 and 12 cartridges each with differing amounts of powder. I started at the recommended minimum, or maybe 0.1 grains above that (started with 3.3 grains of Bullseye, 3.9 grains of Unique, and 2.4 grains of Trailboss).
The Trailboss minimum weight was determined using the method on the IMR website (basically determine the bullet seating depth, fill to that level, weigh the powder and get the maximum recommended load, then take 70% of that as the minimum/starting weight. This gave 2.45 grains or so). I made up the Trailboss rounds with 2.4, 2.6, 2.9, 3.2, and 3.4 grains of powder behind the 255 grain bullets.
The Unique and Bullseye loads were taken from the Lee dies sheet that came with the dies, and the Bullseye was cross referenced to a photo of a page out of an old manual I found at the gun show (the guy let me just take a photo as I didn't want/need the whole thing and he said he'd prefer I take a photo if I'm not buying it as a collectors thing and just want the data). Bullseye started at 3.3 grains and worked up by 0.1 grains up to 3.8 maximum. The Unique started at 3.9 grains (0.1 over the minimum starting load) and worked up to 4.3 (0.1 under the maximum, I think - it might have been the max recommended load).
The bullet seating depth/COAL was determined mostly by measuring the cartridges that a guy gave me with the Webley when I bought it, that he had reloaded. I didn't think that the Fiochhi factory rounds would be a good one to look at, as they are hollow base and are more of a pointed round nose, so I couldn't easily determine the insertion depth from that, and I don't yet have a bullet puller. I figured that 0.257" or so of insertion would be a good starting place, as it would make rounds about 0.05" longer than the ones I was given, but still about 0.1" shorter than the Fiochhi and than the Lee dies manual says. The Lee manual uses a 265 grain bullet though, and it is a round nose bullet there too. Trying to load for the Fiocchi size, or the Lee size, would give me an insertion of less than 0.125" which I wasn't comfortable with; it just didn't look like it would be inserted enough, and a whole lot of the flat side of the bullet was still showing.
On firing these rounds I found that the lowest two loads were REALLY light, in fact, far too light. The next ones up to the max I loaded were all decent, with the max ones *feeling* similar in felt recoil to the factory Fiocchi ammo (10 grains heavier bullets) but maybe a little lighter. Obviously not a great way to determine loads but I don't have a chrono yet.
My biggest issue though, was that the rounds were not accurate. They also didn't seem to hit very hard. We had some computer hard drives out there that needed to have their data destroyed (private farm, not a range, don't worry, not making a mess out of other peoples ranges/properties) so we set them up. Most of the rounds I shot did not go through the hard drives all the way, and the lighter ones only dented the steel case of the hard drives. The third steps and higher would penetrate but not go through and through (given, there are 4-5 steel platters inside, plus a spindle, so that's a lot to ask out of a lead bullet).
Regarding accuracy, I was shooting groups of between 5-7 inches, offhand, with the factory ammo. I'm pretty new to pistols, so I consider that decent for sure. Those are groups of 6, and yes, there was the odd flyer but usually I would feel that they were my fault. With the reloads, I could get about 6-8 inches, but with almost every group there would be one or two flyers, usually off to the left, and sometimes by as much as 10-12 inches! Given, some of those could have been my own fault, but my goodness, they all couldn't have been (plus with factory ammo I was shooting much better).
I also tried some harder lead bullets made for 45 colt (so 2 thousandths under the other bullets diameter - .452") which were 265 grain SWC bullets. They had one lube groove and had a place for a crimp, it looks like. They are much, much longer than the 255 grain bullets, so I seated to the same depth and had a COAL of very close to the factory Fiocchi ammo. These ones were, I would say, similar in accuracy to the other reloads, but maybe with a couple more flyers, but not many.
All rounds were roll crimped at the same time as bullet seating, and were roll crimped to match the factory ammo crimps. The 255 grain bullets were knurled, which I'm told allows them to be roll crimped without issue. The harder lead ones do have what I think is a cannellure for crimping, but I did not seat them QUITE that far. The very edge of the case was JUST starting to get to the cannellure. My concern with seating them deeper is, I don't know how deep I can go before case volume is reduced a significant amount and before I cause pressures to spike.
None of the cases/primers showed ANY signs of excess pressure - all primers were nice and round still, cases all looked to be in just fine condition and extracted just fine. Headstamp/base was fine. No issues. I want to try to load them a little hotter, but wanted to find out what people thought first. Since the Webley pressure levels are pretty low (11,000-13,000 PSI) I can't imagine that i'd see flattened primers or very many other signs of excess pressure, even if they were a little hot, would I? I mean if a 45ACP round can be loaded to 19,000 PSI and show none of that, I can't imagine that the primers would flatten out in a Webley round even at 16,000 PSI, which is far too hot for my liking.
So is the only way to reliably tell if I can load hotter to simply shoot over a chrono and determine velocity, or am I able to figure it out another way?
Is it ALWAYS a bad idea to exceed the max loads, even if the velocity is lower than spec and if there are no signs of excess pressure? I.e. if I load with 4.3 grains of Unique and find that I'm moving at 550-600 FPS and no signs of pressure, could I work up to 4.5-4.6 and get closer to factory velocity, or is that a really stupid idea that could blow up my gun? I just would like to get a little better penetration if possible. Also there was very little deformation of the bullets. I'd say they expanded by maybe 3/16" total, some of them maybe by 1/4" total. That works out to be 40-50% expansion... is that good?
Finally, any recommendations on increasing accuracy?
Thanks all!
First off, I'd like to state that I'm aware of the risks and the safety procedures for loading these cartridges with smokeless. The MkII cartridges were originally Cordite-loaded, and the factory Fiocchi ammo is loaded with smokeless to the best of my knowledge. I have read the threads about reloading BP rounds with smokeless and, while this may not exactly apply, I understand that some may be apprehensive about loading these cartridges with smokeless, but I'm ok with it. Please don't turn this thread into a thread about smokeless vs. black, I just want some help/advice here on getting these things shooting better.
So basically what I've done is I got some Hornady .454 Cowboy bullets, 255 grain, Soft lead, flat point, with the knurled sides. I made up 50 rounds with Trailboss, 50 with Unique, and 50 with Bullseye. Did between 6 and 12 cartridges each with differing amounts of powder. I started at the recommended minimum, or maybe 0.1 grains above that (started with 3.3 grains of Bullseye, 3.9 grains of Unique, and 2.4 grains of Trailboss).
The Trailboss minimum weight was determined using the method on the IMR website (basically determine the bullet seating depth, fill to that level, weigh the powder and get the maximum recommended load, then take 70% of that as the minimum/starting weight. This gave 2.45 grains or so). I made up the Trailboss rounds with 2.4, 2.6, 2.9, 3.2, and 3.4 grains of powder behind the 255 grain bullets.
The Unique and Bullseye loads were taken from the Lee dies sheet that came with the dies, and the Bullseye was cross referenced to a photo of a page out of an old manual I found at the gun show (the guy let me just take a photo as I didn't want/need the whole thing and he said he'd prefer I take a photo if I'm not buying it as a collectors thing and just want the data). Bullseye started at 3.3 grains and worked up by 0.1 grains up to 3.8 maximum. The Unique started at 3.9 grains (0.1 over the minimum starting load) and worked up to 4.3 (0.1 under the maximum, I think - it might have been the max recommended load).
The bullet seating depth/COAL was determined mostly by measuring the cartridges that a guy gave me with the Webley when I bought it, that he had reloaded. I didn't think that the Fiochhi factory rounds would be a good one to look at, as they are hollow base and are more of a pointed round nose, so I couldn't easily determine the insertion depth from that, and I don't yet have a bullet puller. I figured that 0.257" or so of insertion would be a good starting place, as it would make rounds about 0.05" longer than the ones I was given, but still about 0.1" shorter than the Fiochhi and than the Lee dies manual says. The Lee manual uses a 265 grain bullet though, and it is a round nose bullet there too. Trying to load for the Fiocchi size, or the Lee size, would give me an insertion of less than 0.125" which I wasn't comfortable with; it just didn't look like it would be inserted enough, and a whole lot of the flat side of the bullet was still showing.
On firing these rounds I found that the lowest two loads were REALLY light, in fact, far too light. The next ones up to the max I loaded were all decent, with the max ones *feeling* similar in felt recoil to the factory Fiocchi ammo (10 grains heavier bullets) but maybe a little lighter. Obviously not a great way to determine loads but I don't have a chrono yet.
My biggest issue though, was that the rounds were not accurate. They also didn't seem to hit very hard. We had some computer hard drives out there that needed to have their data destroyed (private farm, not a range, don't worry, not making a mess out of other peoples ranges/properties) so we set them up. Most of the rounds I shot did not go through the hard drives all the way, and the lighter ones only dented the steel case of the hard drives. The third steps and higher would penetrate but not go through and through (given, there are 4-5 steel platters inside, plus a spindle, so that's a lot to ask out of a lead bullet).
Regarding accuracy, I was shooting groups of between 5-7 inches, offhand, with the factory ammo. I'm pretty new to pistols, so I consider that decent for sure. Those are groups of 6, and yes, there was the odd flyer but usually I would feel that they were my fault. With the reloads, I could get about 6-8 inches, but with almost every group there would be one or two flyers, usually off to the left, and sometimes by as much as 10-12 inches! Given, some of those could have been my own fault, but my goodness, they all couldn't have been (plus with factory ammo I was shooting much better).
I also tried some harder lead bullets made for 45 colt (so 2 thousandths under the other bullets diameter - .452") which were 265 grain SWC bullets. They had one lube groove and had a place for a crimp, it looks like. They are much, much longer than the 255 grain bullets, so I seated to the same depth and had a COAL of very close to the factory Fiocchi ammo. These ones were, I would say, similar in accuracy to the other reloads, but maybe with a couple more flyers, but not many.
All rounds were roll crimped at the same time as bullet seating, and were roll crimped to match the factory ammo crimps. The 255 grain bullets were knurled, which I'm told allows them to be roll crimped without issue. The harder lead ones do have what I think is a cannellure for crimping, but I did not seat them QUITE that far. The very edge of the case was JUST starting to get to the cannellure. My concern with seating them deeper is, I don't know how deep I can go before case volume is reduced a significant amount and before I cause pressures to spike.
None of the cases/primers showed ANY signs of excess pressure - all primers were nice and round still, cases all looked to be in just fine condition and extracted just fine. Headstamp/base was fine. No issues. I want to try to load them a little hotter, but wanted to find out what people thought first. Since the Webley pressure levels are pretty low (11,000-13,000 PSI) I can't imagine that i'd see flattened primers or very many other signs of excess pressure, even if they were a little hot, would I? I mean if a 45ACP round can be loaded to 19,000 PSI and show none of that, I can't imagine that the primers would flatten out in a Webley round even at 16,000 PSI, which is far too hot for my liking.
So is the only way to reliably tell if I can load hotter to simply shoot over a chrono and determine velocity, or am I able to figure it out another way?
Is it ALWAYS a bad idea to exceed the max loads, even if the velocity is lower than spec and if there are no signs of excess pressure? I.e. if I load with 4.3 grains of Unique and find that I'm moving at 550-600 FPS and no signs of pressure, could I work up to 4.5-4.6 and get closer to factory velocity, or is that a really stupid idea that could blow up my gun? I just would like to get a little better penetration if possible. Also there was very little deformation of the bullets. I'd say they expanded by maybe 3/16" total, some of them maybe by 1/4" total. That works out to be 40-50% expansion... is that good?
Finally, any recommendations on increasing accuracy?
Thanks all!
