Some of the last defenders of Berlin unearthed...

[berger]

This thread is being derailed. Time to lock it, or delete a lot of posts?

Why? There is no name calling, racial slurs, or even argument, just people discussing a topic that revolves around the OP post. Yes, some may find the subject sensitive, but so is the subject of gun ownership. Lock it because you are uncomfortable with the topic, but there really is no other reason to do so. I have seen threads on mag limits go on and on and on and on.

Censor the subject or relax....your call as moderator.

 

[Recce21]

Yup. History is written by the victor and the Allies sure as #### decides to make themselves the faultless heroes doing what was needed and the Germans the evil regime who attacked everyone around them out of hate. Such bull####.

 

[Light Infantry]

History is always written by the Victor, ive read lots of books about WWII and the story all ways seem to be written the American style, Ie. at Normandy there known to have done the best job, or experienced more than the Canadians or Brits, which is somewhat true but trying to take credit for the victory in western Europe is absurd. Then theres the story of the Russian side, accusing the Germans for attacking them first and they didn't want anything to do with it, while Stalin was the one that was getting ready to strike Europe, but Hitler surprised attacked him and pushed his army back quite abit..(you know how it goes). Ive read the story from the German side to, which is very interesting, it was mentioned that they were trying to stop Communism from invading that part of Europe. During the 30's when the German economy was booming on its own strength the Superpowers didn't like that- they didn't want Germany to have the strongest economy, and the Bankers of that time wanted Germany to collapse (The world bankers do that to this day, IE. when a country rises on its own strength, they want them put out of business and want the country to relay on them), but the only way to do that was to start a war against them. The German story is quite different which I think many should look into or To search "the truth about WWII".

I've seen that many people like to attack the Germans for war crimes and about the holocaust, but look at what the Americans did at the end of the war: They killed 1.7 million German POW through starvation and leaving them fenced in a camp with out shelter, which is a quite sad.
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm

The Russians also killed about 25 Million of their own people through out time and took Many German POW of war and kept them for forced labor for many years after the war.

Ive had many family members, fight against the Germans in Romania, many losing their lives at the hands of the German army- but I have nothing against the Germans or hate them or other people. War is War things like these happen almost everywhere.

Either you dont know that this has been proven false beyond doubt, or you just want to stir shiit up.

 

[berger]

Man will find an excuse to kill man, be it religion, race, culture, big ears versus small....

.

More inhumanity has been done by man himself than any other of nature's causes.

 

[flying pig]

History is always written by the Victor, ive read lots of books about WWII and the story all ways seem to be written the American style, Ie. at Normandy there known to have done the best job, or experienced more than the Canadians or Brits, which is somewhat true but trying to take credit for the victory in western Europe is absurd. Then theres the story of the Russian side, accusing the Germans for attacking them first and they didn't want anything to do with it, while Stalin was the one that was getting ready to strike Europe, but Hitler surprised attacked him and pushed his army back quite abit..(you know how it goes). Ive read the story from the German side to, which is very interesting, it was mentioned that they were trying to stop Communism from invading that part of Europe. During the 30's when the German economy was booming on its own strength the Superpowers didn't like that- they didn't want Germany to have the strongest economy, and the Bankers of that time wanted Germany to collapse (The world bankers do that to this day, IE. when a country rises on its own strength, they want them put out of business and want the country to relay on them), but the only way to do that was to start a war against them. The German story is quite different which I think many should look into or To search "the truth about WWII".

I've seen that many people like to attack the Germans for war crimes and about the holocaust, but look at what the Americans did at the end of the war: They killed 1.7 million German POW through starvation and leaving them fenced in a camp with out shelter, which is a quite sad.
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm

The Russians also killed about 25 Million of their own people through out time and took Many German POW of war and kept them for forced labor for many years after the war.

Ive had many family members, fight against the Germans in Romania, many losing their lives at the hands of the German army- but I have nothing against the Germans or hate them or other people. War is War things like these happen almost everywhere.

Since when does stopping expansion of communism involve trying to beat it? There is a huge difference between containment and annihilation with the later being Hitler's goal in Russia. What it boils down to is the fact that the western allies needed Stalin'd brutish hand in order to defeat Hitler. We needed him to sacrifice his sons for us so our fathers and grandfathers could have a chance to live. The Russians did probably 80% of the dirty work against the Germans, and certainly lost the most blood for every inch of ground gained. A lot of it may have been poor training and leadership combined with the obvious low value for human life, but it was said that the only time the western allies had casualty rates nearly approaching that of Russia's during the entire war in Europe was during Normandy. The Russians beat the Germans, we just financed it. And I'm fine with that. I had a Grandfather and a Great Grandfather there, and both came home and lived long happy lives. Without Stalin's Reds a lot of us wouldn't have been conceived.

 

[CreamySmooth]

Man will find an excuse to kill man, be it religion, race, culture, big ears versus small....

.

Yup, ain't that the truth. It's why I don't agree with most immigration. I love the concept of bringing new people to opportunity and a better life, but that's a dreamers ideal. As a realist, I realize that there are simply no two cultures/groups/religions that have EVER coexisted long term. Go ahead, name a set that gets along. History is a brutal teacher, and ideals are often a sword fallen on.

 

[Mike Webb]

Yup. History is written by the victor and the Allies sure as #### decides to make themselves the faultless heroes doing what was needed and the Germans the evil regime who attacked everyone around them out of hate. Such bull####.

I suggest you read" The Last Lion" 1929-1940 by William Manchester. It is a finely researched examination of the years leading up to WW2 and the escalation of German expansion. The allies weren't heroic to a fault but the Nazi regime WAS evil! Millions of Germans would tell you the same thing.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Back to the subject at hand.
Selow Heights was a battle that didn't go quite as easily for the Russians as they planned and as always Stalin was in the background demanding more and giving advice. Russians came up with the novel tactic of a night attack with bright lights intended to blind the defenders. Just a short note.

Grizz

 

[Brutus]

Yup. History is written by the victor and the Allies sure as #### decides to make themselves the faultless heroes doing what was needed and the Germans the evil regime who attacked everyone around them out of hate. Such bull####.

So, please put forth an alternative world reaction to the annexation of Austria, parts of Czechoslavakia and the invasion of Poland, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Luxemberg, Russia, Greece, Yugoslavia, etc, etc, etc???

PS: As well as the elimination of six million Jews, Gypsies, political opponents and other mostly slavic innocents, that were considered to be sub-humans to the nazi regime.

 

[Reeferman]

Mao has them all beat.

 

[Gibbs505]

Mao has them all beat.

True, very true!

 

[fritzhanzel]

popten.net/2010/05/top-ten-most-evil-dictators-of-all-time-in-order-of-kill-count/

Hitler is third. Interestingly, people often speak of Stalin and Mao but then they talk about the Germans. Do the Germans of today have anything to do with what happened during world war II? There is some obvious racism in some of those posts here. Evil Germans, then one poster is starting against the immigrants. No wonder one is against guns when you read some of the stuff posted on the biggest Canadian gun forum. The liberals are having a field day reading this stuff.

Be assured, as the last Nazis will die soon, so will their haters.

 

[RRCo.]

Yup. History is written by the victor and the Allies sure as #### decides to make themselves the faultless heroes doing what was needed and the Germans the evil regime who attacked everyone around them out of hate. Such bull####.

We're always open to new information. So tell us how it really happened.

The Russians beat the Germans, we just financed it. And I'm fine with that. I had a Grandfather and a Great Grandfather there, and both came home and lived long happy lives. Without Stalin's Reds a lot of us wouldn't have been conceived.

Atomic bomb would have solved that problem, just a few years later.

Fortunately Hitler forced the German generals and admirals into war before they were really prepared: they were planning for 1944/45.

Yup, history is written by the victors using the documents and statements of the defeated!

 

[RRCo.]

Her dad was in Eindhoven. To this day there's only one thing he despises more than Germans, a British fellow by the name of Montgomery (he got to witness the German vengence on the city first hand when the locals came out in support of the doomed allied paratroopers - he was forced to watch 1/4 of his schoolmates lined up against walls).

I can solve that problem for your Dad. He can read a little book by a Dutch secret service man who called himself Col. Oreste Pinto. He details exactly how the Market Garden operation was betrayed by a Dutch "resistance" leader whose brother the Germans had captured. I don't have my copy handy, but you can find one online for your Dad I'm sure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreste_Pinto

Ah, here we go:

After the war, claims arose that the Dutch resistance had indeed been penetrated. One high-ranking Dutch officer who had worked in counter-intelligence at SHAEF, Lieutenant-Colonel Oreste Pinto published a popular book, Spy Catcher, part-memoir and part counter-intelligence handbook. Pinto, who had made a name for himself in World War I for his part in uncovering Mata Hari, claimed that a minor figure in the Dutch resistance, Christiaan Lindemans (nicknamed "King Kong") had been a German agent and had betrayed Operation Market Garden to the Germans.[131] Lindemans was arrested in October 1944, but committed suicide in his cell in 1946 while awaiting trial. In 1969, French journalist and historian Anne Laurens concluded that Lindemans had been a double agent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Lindemans

 

[Corry]

Yup. History is written by the victor and the Allies sure as #### decides to make themselves the faultless heroes doing what was needed and the Germans the evil regime who attacked everyone around them out of hate. Such bull####.

Yeah Hitler was a good guy trying to liberate Holland, Norway, Finland, Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium and Russia and so on... we need more good guys like that right (end sarcasm)

 

[Coyote Ugly]

(The Invading Aggressors - Russian and German Buddies of 1939, double crossed each other and got Real Ornery with each other on the Russian Front 2 years later!)

The 1939 Soviet Invasion of Poland.

The Soviet invasion of Poland was a Soviet military operation that started without a formal declaration of war on 17 September 1939. On that day, sixteen days after Nazi Germany invaded Poland from the west, the Soviet Union did so from the east. The invasion ended on 6 October 1939 with the division and annexing of the whole of the Second Polish Republic by Germany and the Soviet Union.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

 

[fritzhanzel]

..., most Dutch people I know don't like the Germans because Germany won the soccer world cup.

 

[purple]

Germany has certainly rehabilitated itself in the 69 yrs since WW2 and has become a functioning democracy with a highly productive economy and a high standard of living for it's people. I wouldn't beat too hard on the sons for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.

The German Armed Forces were once a strong and capable bulwark for NATO and for their own country during the Cold War. Their once strong military has deteriorated quite markedly to the present with significant reductions in troop strength and equipment and much lower levels of readiness and deployability. German operations in Afghanistan were severely limited by many political caveats on their employment, as well by the fact that political manoeuvering by the German government allowed them to pick a comparatively "safe" operational area. The burden of NATO fighting (and dying) in Afghanistan, relative to numbers of troops deployed, was/is borne by the US, the Brits, the Canadians, the Danes and the Dutch.

There is a lot of concern in NATO about the low levels of German defence expenditures versus GDP. It will be interesting to see if Putin's neo-Soviet behaviour causes things to change.

 

[RRCo.]

Germany has certainly rehabilitated itself in the 69 yrs since WW2 and has become a functioning democracy with a highly productive economy and a high standard of living for it's people. I wouldn't beat too hard on the sons for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers.

Neither would I; unless of course they like to deny them.

We can and should admire the good traits of the Germans; I was happy when they won the World Cup. It shows how a country can turn around its performance with a systematic and committed effort and plenty of investment - which is exactly how they won the World Cup.

I was listening to a guy this year who left Germany when he was about 12 to come to Canada. He made this statement, quite unprompted, after a visit back to the old country: "They'd put the boots on again in five minutes if they thought they could get away with it!"

That bears some thinking about doesn't it?

 

[camster]

One feather in Germany's cap? Social responsibility. [West]Germany's money helped a very young Israel. It is illegal to deny the holocaust, or glorify Nazism in Germany. Now 70 years later their autos are coveted gems. Having a hard time finding another perpetrator of such atrocities who ended up helping to carve a nation for those they oppressed.

My Dad came to Canada in '57, but was a young lad in Berlin when it all started (and ended). Got his first piece of gum from an American Soldier. Opened the door to his biological Father after his Mom(my Oma) had been remarried for a few years. My Opa was a "guest" of the Russians for a while post war.

I don't know a soul who actually experienced any of the atrocities (on either side)that would consider starting it again.