spring bear: sks or 12ga slugs

Saddle mounts are very good, at least on my 870. I can't tell you how many times I've removed it, removed the rifled barrel, replaced barrel, replaced mount and had the thing shoot to point of aim. I've NEVER had to adjust the turrets on the scope aside from using different loads. Also, in my opinion, get a good scope. Leupold has an excellent SHOTGUN scope with heavy reticle for about the 250 mark and is as reliable as paying taxes. I've found that the optics on red dots are lousy, like shooting in the evening with dark sunglasses. The heavy recoil from a slug gun hasn't bothered my Leupold scope in almost 1000 rounds, maybe a bit more. (I load a lot of Lyman/Lee slugs). Best of luck with your choice and your hunt.
 
Boomer said:
A fellow here iced a moose with a Ruger 77 in 7.62X39 so with the right bullet the little carbine ought to work, but what do I know, my idea of a serious bear gun is a .375 or a .458! I would assume a hunter shoots his rifle enough to know if he has a reasonable expectation of making a killing shot at any given range long before he takes it afield, but you're point is well taken; a battle carbine that is meant to dominate a gunfight over pistol ranges, might not be the ideal big game rifle. Having said that, we make such a big deal over rifle accuracy, yet the hunters I've seen who can keep their first round within 2 minutes of their aiming point under field conditions are the exception to the rule. Even an SKS is more accurate than a smooth bore slug gun, and will usually hold 4 MOA with decent ammo. That's good enough if you have a 12" target, and can shoot up to the rifle. Of course shooting up to the accuracy potential of an SKS is a challenge given their typically poor triggers, short sight radius, and the difficulty in finding a quality scope attachment.
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We all know a "Joe Schmoe" who shot a moose... Or Bear... Or (insert animal of choice) with a .22 Mag... Or .223... Or (insert diminutive caliber of choice)... But recommendations based on those experiences are going to end badly more often then not...

You would think, that hunters paying for a guided hunt would bringing an appropriate weapon and be sighted in and well practiced... Think again!!! Over the years, I had guys show up with a gun that they "borrowed from their brother-in-law and had never shot... Guys with guns that was their "grampa's (again they had never shot), but it "should be good grampa kill lots of stuff with it." I even had two guys show up with NO weapon (they thought it was included) and one of those asked me if he should use a gun or bow, I said "whatever you are more comfortable with at 20 yards..." He says; "I'll use whatever you give me," turned out he had never shot a bow in his life! I always had a proficiency test before I put any hunters in a stand... I had a range stand set-up on the farm, I can't tell you the number of guys that I had to send into town for more bullets, or a new scope or mounts... Guys who couldn't hit a five gallon pail at 50 yards... I was only looking for a 3" group at 25 yards (afterall I was going to be the one blood trailing)... I had one guy that went through four boxes of shells before we got him inside of the 3"!!!

As for the 12" target... The boiler room is more like 10" on a shooter bear... And that would be "IF" there was a nice bright red bullseye on the bear... The problem is most hunters can't find the center of the target, so this drastically reduces the margin of error to the "off side." Bears are probably the toughest animals to line-up a shot on... Their black fur absorbs light, and shooting is often in poor light, under dark canopy's... With some young hunters, I would accompany them in the stand, while their parent hunted elsewhere... I would use a laser pointer and place it on the bear in the exact spot that they needed to shoot for... Every single one of these, over the years, was a short tracking job.
 
.22 Hornet...it's more than enough. No need to put up with the muzzle blast, recoil and wasted power of a .223. :)

Seriously, given the choices here, I would go with the 12-gauge.
 
safehunter said:
A little more split than I would like, but I`m going to `score` a case of slugs and see how it goes at the range.
I may look into the red dot. I`m a bit loath to get it drilled and tapped and I`m not to sure about saddle mounts.
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What's a case of slugs worth? $100? $200? Then add a half decent red dot and paying someone to drill/tap or a saddle mount, another $200. Now you're at $300-$400, which will get you a Savage in 308/30-06/270 on the EE or even an Axis in a store. A box of ammo is $20. If you're stuck for a scope, shoot me a PM, I have some decent entry level ones laying around, I'll send you one for Xmas, with rings.

Neither the 12 gauge or SKS are a good caliber for a first time bear hunter, I wouldn't use them. The other thing I would look into is maybe borrowing a gun until you can save up for your own.
 
Given the number of people who are intimidated by the recoil and blast of a .308 or a .30/06, the suggestion of a 12 ga for a novice's bear gun does not seem entirely appropriate, and managed recoil ammo has no place in a big game shotgun. If someone seriously asks me what rifle to use on a bear hunt, because they really don't know, I would probably suggest a 6.5X55 or a .260 Remington, loaded with 140 - 160 gr bullets at the lower of the power spectrum, to the .30/06 with 165-180 gr bullets at the upper end. Probably a .30/30 lever gun is a good compromise. If folks are going afield with no shooting experience, there's not much that will help them, laser pointers not withstanding. Big game hunting without some basic marksmanship experience is akin to parachuting without going to jump school. Aside from being unsafe to all concerned, its not fair to the game. I don't understand why anyone would do such a thing, or for that matter, would want to.

Rereading post #1, the OP suggests he already has an SKS and a 12 bore, but we don't know what shooting experience he has. We know he doesn't handload because he talked about purchasing a case of ammo, so loading 7.62X39 ammo that is appropriate for big game probably won't happen. We can assume the 12 ga is equipped with neither rifle sights nor optics, and we can further assume that he has not attempted to hit a realistic sized target with slugs with his bead sighted shotgun or determined his group size or trajectory at a variety of ranges. Perhaps the best advice is that he holds off bear hunting until an appropriate big game rifle can be purchased, and until such time that he has managed to develop some level of competence with it.
 
Boomer said:
Given the number of people who are intimidated by the recoil and blast of a .308 or a .30/06, the suggestion of a 12 ga for a novice's bear gun does not seem entirely appropriate, and managed recoil ammo has no place in a big game shotgun. If someone seriously asks me what rifle to use on a bear hunt, because they really don't know, I would probably suggest a 6.5X55 or a .260 Remington, loaded with 140 - 160 gr bullets at the lower of the power spectrum, to the .30/06 with 165-180 gr bullets at the upper end. Probably a .30/30 lever gun is a good compromise. If folks are going afield with no shooting experience, there's not much that will help them, laser pointers not withstanding. Big game hunting without some basic marksmanship experience is akin to parachuting without going to jump school. Aside from being unsafe to all concerned, its not fair to the game. I don't understand why anyone would do such a thing, or for that matter, would want to.

Rereading post #1, the OP suggests he already has an SKS and a 12 bore, but we don't know what shooting experience he has. We know he doesn't handload because he talked about purchasing a case of ammo, so loading 7.62X39 ammo that is appropriate for big game probably won't happen. We can assume the 12 ga is equipped with neither rifle sights nor optics, and we can further assume that he has not attempted to hit a realistic sized target with slugs with his bead sighted shotgun or determined his group size or trajectory at a variety of ranges. Perhaps the best advice is that he holds off bear hunting until an appropriate big game rifle can be purchased, and until such time that he has managed to develop some level of competence with it.
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I only answered the question asked... "SKS or 12 gauge"... My answer is; "If you are going to do it, then use the 12 gauge with a red dot (hard to screw-up)..."

If you are answering the question that wasn't asked... Then there are many answers, from many folks, for any situation... BUT, I agree, I was never too disappointed to see a Win 94 in .30/30 or .32 Special being pulled from a guncase... Whereas, I cringed if it was an SKS... Most folks had more appropriate bear guns in .308, .30/06, 7 RM, .280, 7X57, .35 Whelen etc... etc...

While we are answering that question "not asked," the .358 Win and .35 Whelen are close to perfect cartridges for NorOnt blackies...
 
Its tough (for some people) to ask the right questions when they're not fully aware of the problem. Thus when a partial question is asked, some unsolicited answers are properly inserted. Perhaps our burgeoning bear hunter could start perusing the pages of the Tradex site and find a good Husqvarna that was within his budget. Those folks would help him out tremendously if he asked, and he'd end up with a suitable rifle ready to go, right out of the box. If he got the rifle and some ammo by mid January, he'd have lots of opportunity to become proficient with it by spring bear season. Last time I looked there were quite a few 9.3X57s, which should stand midway between your .358 and .35 Whelen, but IMHO those shine brightest with handloads and a recoil tolerant shooter. Anyway, just a few more unsolicited suggestions.
 
Hello,

i think Mike nailed it.

you can bring one question but some others may bring the light with some suggestions or other questions.

at the end the suggestion about an old sweden rifle in 9.3x57 is really a good one.

all the best.

Phil
 
Over bait, nothing beats a 12 gauge slug for bear. Thats my very limited experience epeaking, but my buddy who guidesnfor bear agrees with me. A bead sight is all that's needed for some shotguns at close range, although a red dot is nice. My Winchester 1300 (same gun as a 2200) puts slugs right on the bead at bait ranges, using the duck barrel. No scope needed. I would buy a box of 2 3/4 Winchester slugs and if you can hit a bagel sized object at bait range, you are good to go.
 
What's to debate here? He said he wants to hunt bear and he's going to bait. Why would he need a 30/06 with scope. Would he put the bait 200 yards away? His shot wont be more then 30 yards. 12 gauge with bead or whatever optic is all that's needed.
 
Firstly, I appreciate all the tips and suggestions, even if off topic. I`m probably asking the wrong questions but I have no experience hunting anything larger than grouse. The thought of tracking a wounded bear through miles of bush having never held a flashlight in my teeth is intimidating to say the least and something I wish to avoid.

I don`t consider myself recoil sensitive but I don`t reload. I had no trouble target shooting with my fathers Winchester 30-06 with 180 grain or his Remington 1100 12 gauge although that was with game loads. Unfortunately with my fathers passing last year those guns as well as the rest of his locker, my tree stand and the hunt camps were sold off by his very angry wife who is of the opinion that all hunting should cease now that he is gone. I obviously don`t agree with her and have spent the last few months building my own collection which along with safe, ammo, licences and club fees has soaked up both my discretionary spending and my wife`s patience. God forbid I`ve even had to give up some vices as a compromise.

I`ve looked into 303s, mausers, mosins, k31 etc but they all seem like a compromise to the rifle I really want, which is the Winchester that got sold off. Since I don`t reload yet, these rifles also have harder to come by commercial loads which seem no less expensive than slugs. I think Savages are great value and may look into one of them later, but I`d still want to practice putting rounds down range so I`d be buying ammo regardless. Besides, shooting has it`s own pleasure.

I`ve been planning on going bear hunting for the last two years, and have baited very successfully, but the combination of my fathers sickness and passing has meant that I`ve had to put this dream on hold. I`m not willing to put this off any longer. AFAIK, the Ontario spring bear hunt is a trial and could easily get yanked after a year. I`ve heard too many positives about spring meat and coat to let it pass.

12 gauge with slugs it is. And practice. It`s a poor mans dream. The red dot is a good idea and something I`m going to pursue. I`ll see if the gunsmith thinks it is worthwhile but I have a feeling I`ll be using the bead sight. With practice and short range I`m confident that it will get the job done.
 
Sorry to hear about your dad, it is common when someone dies that the wife just wants ride of it all so there are no more memories around. You can’t go wrong with a 12 gauge and a slug, my grandfather took a big moose with one year, and it’s all he had at the time as he was hunting birds. I see you are in Waterloo, where are you hunting and sighting in?
 
If you can get them, try Challenger slugs. They've grouped better for me out of smoothbores than the Federal/Remington Foster type slugs. I think they run about $20 for a box of 10 after taxes. Remember that you'll have to stick to non-Saboted slugs out of your smoothbore. Any choke will work, though an improved cylinder or modified is usually more accurate than full. Brenneke's are the best, but pricey and hard to find.
 
I`m sighting in at the Waterloo Rod and Gun club. It has a decent range, especially for the price.

I`ll be hunting north of Hagar, which is half way between Sudbury and North Bay. It was where my dad had a camp, so I know the area really well. WMU 41. It was two years ago there I had a tons of spring bear sightings, right after the previous years bumper blueberry crop and the winter that wasn`t. It was then I decided to go bear hunting. I put out a barrel of bait and the bears went crazy. They leveled a 10 yard radius around the barrel, which was tied down with aircraft cable. Anything tree smaller than 2" got knocked down. The whole place reeked like wet dog. Never seen anything like it, wouldn`t have believed it unless I had. And then the old man actually hit one in his brand new truck coming out from camp. The joke was he got his bear before I got mine.

I`m hoping the score slugs are worth the hype. I`m sure for $1 a slug I can offload them if I find my gun doesn`t like them. I`ve heard great things about Brenneke`s but I didn`t know about Challenger, thanks for the tip. The only slugs I`ve been warned away from have been Winchester, apparently they have cardboard wads?

I have an IC choke tube courtesy of the EE. It`s a beauty, but quite shiny, so I may camo tape it up.
 
use the one you shoot best with know you're target(know where the vitals are) and don't take iffy shots. here in Ontario especially up north most optics are useless unless they are low power with a wide range of view. just like using a uber magnum is pointless because most game here is shot within bow range. and you don't have to worry about black bears too much I worry about moose more as they are bigger and heavier and have a brain the size of a walnut black bears are scavengers they are basically giant raccoons
 
If you don't use the red dot, then get a set of Williams Fire Sights... they clamp on the rib and the fiber optic rods will really help you in low light... they are not expensive... but neither is a saddle mount and red dot sight. PM sent.
 
A couple of questions:

At what range do you plan to shoot? 20 yards? 100 yards? Use whatever you can shoot accurately at whatever range you plan to be shooting at. Bear hunting over bait is good this way, because typically you're shooting at one predetermined range. The SKS will leave you at a disadvantage, due to its inherent in-accurateness, but a 12ga with slugs can quickly help you develop a flinch, so IMHO you'd be choosing the lesser of two evils.

What type of optic would you use, if any? You speak of irons and beads, neither of which will be ideal at last light, which is prime time.

I find that in the spring time, it gets darker, faster under a canopy of leaves, which makes it really tough to see your target at last light. A good way to mitigate this is to use light-coloured barrels to make the animal stand out.
 
I had shooting friend many years ago who's son guided in Alaska. When clients wounded Grizzly they would go after them a Remington 870 pump loaded with slugs. A 12 ga. slug is a very potent projectile, especially at the 50yds and under ranges.
 
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