Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
So if I am wrong and new shooters are not intimidated by open class gear (including optics) why the poor attendance?
See new thread.
See new thread.
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SR equipment discussion
- Thread starter C77
- Start date
Maybe I'll throw in my current perspective from a new shooter that hasn't even competed yet (my first match will be in 2013.)
Even if I thought a 'spacegun' was required to win I cant see it chasing me from the sport. In any case it seems like the wrong area of concern if I was cash strapped. I'd be more worried about where I'm going to find the time and money to put 5-8k rounds downrange to gain the experience/competence required to compete with the good shooters. I might be unique in how much research I've done before joining, but I'm fully aware that a spacegun wouldn't help me currently. Instead I've purchased a 1-4x optic, and a m&p 15-22 so I can practice on my indoor range as well as the pistol ranges where I live for the positional aspect of service rifle shooting. I've made photoshop files of the figure 11 targets so I can scale them down to deal with the limited distance on the pistol ranges, and I've contacted local shooters to try and get some advice on training and prepping for the matches.
I will admit that I see the benefit of certain aspects of ipsc ranking system as I know I'm competing against similarly skilled shooters (though that is less about equipment restrictions as much as it is classifying shooters within the equipment group ie production, open, classic) But I'm not afraid of working my way up the ranks to get to the top, I just have to acknowledge that its going to take more time and effort as right from day one I'm competing against the best. Might be cool to have something like a rookie category so new shooters might have something to aim for in their first season, but I dont know if there are enough new shooters every year to justify that. I think that would do more to encourage new shooters and get them hooked, as it would fuel the competitive juices when they are new. My first ipsc match I won the unclassified production division but would have got smoked against A class shooters. Personally it gave me encouragement and a desire to move up and get better. I'm competitive so even if I placed 65th I'd want to improve and become better, but I can see how if you were new and competing against the top shooters it might feel like an insurmountable gap?
I can see how it would get frustrating if you went through years of being 2nd - 5th place no matter how much you trained if you couldnt afford a 1-8 us optics to throw on a spacegun, but I have a hard time believing someone would back out of the sport at the beginning because of that. It seems a pretty big ego would be required to think they can show up as a new shooter and compete near the top no matter what gun you bring. I plan to be there eventually, but I know the time and training required to get there.
Even if I thought a 'spacegun' was required to win I cant see it chasing me from the sport. In any case it seems like the wrong area of concern if I was cash strapped. I'd be more worried about where I'm going to find the time and money to put 5-8k rounds downrange to gain the experience/competence required to compete with the good shooters. I might be unique in how much research I've done before joining, but I'm fully aware that a spacegun wouldn't help me currently. Instead I've purchased a 1-4x optic, and a m&p 15-22 so I can practice on my indoor range as well as the pistol ranges where I live for the positional aspect of service rifle shooting. I've made photoshop files of the figure 11 targets so I can scale them down to deal with the limited distance on the pistol ranges, and I've contacted local shooters to try and get some advice on training and prepping for the matches.
I will admit that I see the benefit of certain aspects of ipsc ranking system as I know I'm competing against similarly skilled shooters (though that is less about equipment restrictions as much as it is classifying shooters within the equipment group ie production, open, classic) But I'm not afraid of working my way up the ranks to get to the top, I just have to acknowledge that its going to take more time and effort as right from day one I'm competing against the best. Might be cool to have something like a rookie category so new shooters might have something to aim for in their first season, but I dont know if there are enough new shooters every year to justify that. I think that would do more to encourage new shooters and get them hooked, as it would fuel the competitive juices when they are new. My first ipsc match I won the unclassified production division but would have got smoked against A class shooters. Personally it gave me encouragement and a desire to move up and get better. I'm competitive so even if I placed 65th I'd want to improve and become better, but I can see how if you were new and competing against the top shooters it might feel like an insurmountable gap?
I can see how it would get frustrating if you went through years of being 2nd - 5th place no matter how much you trained if you couldnt afford a 1-8 us optics to throw on a spacegun, but I have a hard time believing someone would back out of the sport at the beginning because of that. It seems a pretty big ego would be required to think they can show up as a new shooter and compete near the top no matter what gun you bring. I plan to be there eventually, but I know the time and training required to get there.
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Good question! Maybe the differences we see here between the CQB and SR turnout explains that. Civilian CQB turnout is far greater than at SR. They're shot at the same range. Gear cost certainly isn't the issue, it's the same cost for rifles and optics (can use the same rifles and optics). What is different between the two? The things I can think of:
1) SR requires running. Not a real popular activity these days... and not friendly to disabled/older folks.
2) It's hard to miss a Fig. 11 completely at 35 yards. Not hard and all from 200-500, especially in positions if all that you do at the local range is shoot off the bench. Kind of embarrassing...
3) CQB isn't something most people are going to with the intent of being competitive. Most are going is to have fun.
4) Nobody razzes them about using "spaceguns" at the range or on the net. No worries about what you show up with being "outside the box".
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
To be fair, a hyper accurate rifle is not going to help you at CQB distances. Longer ranges is where increased accuracy will help. CQB is also able to be practiced at any range with a 50 m length. Heck, a 25m range is good for that. Hard for newbies to get a range where they can practice at 300 or 500 to see how possible it is to hit at these distances.
Agreed about the running, nobody I know gets all excited about it.
Agreed about the running, nobody I know gets all excited about it.
A hyper accurate rifle isn't going to help the majority of people in the standing or kneeling positions. There isn't a rifle on the line that isn't capable of making hits at 100 or 200, yet that is where most people dump the majority of their points. It isn't from pulling shots into the 4, its from missing the target completely.
Local range being short hasn't prevented people from going out and shooting the bolt guns out to 1000 yards now, has it?
Local range being short hasn't prevented people from going out and shooting the bolt guns out to 1000 yards now, has it?
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
No, but the start up costs for a competitive PR, F-class or TR is off putting. I don't have any desire to try to keep up equipment wise with the top shooters in those sports and frankly that is one reason why I don't get excited about PR. I shoot it for fun when I can...but it isn't important to me.
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
So if it is not gear and I don't think it is the little bits of running as most of my guys were running the soldiers cup route (3.6km) every day in full gear because they wanted to.
Agreed about the running, nobody I know gets all excited about it.
haha I must be in the minority. I started getted interested in competitions for the very fact they had movement in them (to get off the bench, so to speak). Granted ipsc isnt a huge amount of running (that was my intro to competition) But I love dynamic movement and running and gunning. I would love if they had ipsc style matches that I could run with my rifle (I mean in abundance, I get that I can find the occasional 3 gun match out west)
Service conditions is less dynamic movement, but I still like that it has the rundowns in it.
How many civilians train for the soldiers cup?
Why would military shooters be intimidated by open class equipment at NSCC when they shoot in a separate class, and both classes have the same set of awards and chair their winners in the same manner?
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
GL - correct me if I am wrong here but I don't think your are talking about soldiers who compete in a separate class. The issue is civilians who what to get in and get automatically put in the open class with a) the most experienced shooters (that can't be helped and in fact it is a great way to learn) and b) guys with high dollar, tricked out "space guns" (I am starting to hate that term as much as "assault weapon")
Kombayotch
When I go to NSCC this year, and I bring a rifle with no break, 8 lb trigger, no free float tube and a $400 optic do I get to be classed with the CF/RCMP - NO! I will be lumped in with all the guys with tricked out match rifles. Heck, if I show up with an SKS I am still in the Open class at NSCC. (I know, there is not excuse to shoot a national championship match with an SKS - I was using a slightly extreme example)
As GL said, it is the perception that the technological advantage is significant that may be keeping civilian shooters away. I'm not sure because I don't personally think that way. I also have a rifle that would likely be classed as a tricked out match rifle to shoot, but if I didn't I would have shot last year with my Norc. I was in it for the experience.
Is there a reason why we should stay away from another class for civilians with "Service Equivalent" rifles, for those who want to shoot lower cost rifles with less enhancements? The guys with the match rifles can still go ahead and play with 24 inch barrels, muzzle brakes, float tubes and light, crisp match triggers.
In a similar thought process, all Civilians for PR as lumped together but if you are in the military there is an DMR class that specifies the use of AR type platforms. If that were opened up civilians there might be interest for shooters to try that as they won't be competing against the custom match rifles that the top shooters are using. Heck, some shooters might be interested but the only have an AR and not a bolt gun. Seems like a fun idea to me. I'd give it a go.
Kombayotch
When I go to NSCC this year, and I bring a rifle with no break, 8 lb trigger, no free float tube and a $400 optic do I get to be classed with the CF/RCMP - NO! I will be lumped in with all the guys with tricked out match rifles. Heck, if I show up with an SKS I am still in the Open class at NSCC. (I know, there is not excuse to shoot a national championship match with an SKS - I was using a slightly extreme example)
As GL said, it is the perception that the technological advantage is significant that may be keeping civilian shooters away. I'm not sure because I don't personally think that way. I also have a rifle that would likely be classed as a tricked out match rifle to shoot, but if I didn't I would have shot last year with my Norc. I was in it for the experience.
Is there a reason why we should stay away from another class for civilians with "Service Equivalent" rifles, for those who want to shoot lower cost rifles with less enhancements? The guys with the match rifles can still go ahead and play with 24 inch barrels, muzzle brakes, float tubes and light, crisp match triggers.
In a similar thought process, all Civilians for PR as lumped together but if you are in the military there is an DMR class that specifies the use of AR type platforms. If that were opened up civilians there might be interest for shooters to try that as they won't be competing against the custom match rifles that the top shooters are using. Heck, some shooters might be interested but the only have an AR and not a bolt gun. Seems like a fun idea to me. I'd give it a go.
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Shhhhh - so do I. It's the off season training that I'm doing that I hate. It's partially for SR, partially for the Warrior Dash I am signed up for and partially because I am having a significant birthday this year and my ass is getting to fat.
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
They only shoot in military class if on duty, shooting an issued rifle and issued ammo. An individuals unit pays for all their shooting, travel and ammo out of its own budget. So getting out for a match here and there takes a supportive chain of command, skill with paperwork and some extra money in the training budget .
How do you get them to come and shoot as civilians when they can't get support or after they leave the forces?
How do you get the guy who just got his licence to come out and shoot.
How do you get them to come and shoot as civilians when they can't get support or after they leave the forces?
How do you get the guy who just got his licence to come out and shoot.
If its fear of equipment that keeps civies away, then why has the opposite not happened at ORA at the ORA SR matches where the winners are usually shooting a C7?
Here we have a control group where the winners are using stock rifles, and we have a much larger pool of black rifle shooters in the area (we know there are many from the CQB matches), but we don't have a higher number of civies going to these matches that there is at NSCC where the pool of shooters in the surrounding area is much smaller. Notice he ignore this?
I'm sorry, but the winner wasn't using a "high dollar spaceguns". He was using an Armalite Target model. That's hardly a high dollar gun, in fact it costs about the same as the RRA NM rifle he mentioned earlier. It's also probably one of the only rifles with a barrel longer than 16" that you'll find in the country.
Would you as a match director open an third class, increasing the cost of your prize table, when half of the individual open matches where taken by what was supposed to be the "disadvantaged class"?
How about instead just put the civilians shooting "Service Equivalent" rifles into the CF/RCMP class? The second place open shooter was shooting a rifle that is as close as a civie can get to a C7...
How is this any different than it is for the civies who were never in the military?
You tell them to: "bring what you have and come out with the attitude that you are here to have fun and maybe learn something, not that you have to win".
Your argument seems to be based on the premise that if shooters can't win, they don't want to participate. Maybe that is the reason so many more people go to CQB... the prevailing attitude of those going is that they are there to have fun, and not that if they can't win, they refuse to participate.
Referring to the elephant in the room...
The reason NSCC is poorly attended (aside from maybe local Ontario and CF shooters) is that there is piss poor backing of Service Conditions shooters at the PRA level (at least nearly all of them).
Speaking of our experience in Alberta, the Service Conditions club was run out of the APRA due to in-fighting with the Full Bore group. That is fact, and that in-fighting predates my time with them that started 10 short years ago.
I (and most other people interested in service conditons) am at a point where I want nothing to do with my provincial body, and that provincial body wants nothing to do with service conditions.
I once organized a team to attend the NSCC from Alberta. Despite being low numbers (I had a motorcycle crash a month prior and others couldn't arrange time off work), It was aided by the generosity of a fellow SR competitor and Regimental brother (thanks again JR and the Shooting Edge). it was NOT aided in any way, shape or form by my PRA.
You guys want NSCC well attended and Service Conditions back where it should be? Re-vamp the PRAs is where you have to start (or start another set of bodies that take SR away from the control of the DCRA and the PRAs).
As long as I need to be a member of my PRA to belong to and shoot DCRA competitions, it's not going to happen (at least living in Alberta - it seems they are more interested in serving their own interests in shooting styles that have nothing to do with DCRA programs...)
The reason NSCC is poorly attended (aside from maybe local Ontario and CF shooters) is that there is piss poor backing of Service Conditions shooters at the PRA level (at least nearly all of them).
Speaking of our experience in Alberta, the Service Conditions club was run out of the APRA due to in-fighting with the Full Bore group. That is fact, and that in-fighting predates my time with them that started 10 short years ago.
I (and most other people interested in service conditons) am at a point where I want nothing to do with my provincial body, and that provincial body wants nothing to do with service conditions.
I once organized a team to attend the NSCC from Alberta. Despite being low numbers (I had a motorcycle crash a month prior and others couldn't arrange time off work), It was aided by the generosity of a fellow SR competitor and Regimental brother (thanks again JR and the Shooting Edge). it was NOT aided in any way, shape or form by my PRA.
You guys want NSCC well attended and Service Conditions back where it should be? Re-vamp the PRAs is where you have to start (or start another set of bodies that take SR away from the control of the DCRA and the PRAs).
As long as I need to be a member of my PRA to belong to and shoot DCRA competitions, it's not going to happen (at least living in Alberta - it seems they are more interested in serving their own interests in shooting styles that have nothing to do with DCRA programs...)
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
I am not ignoring it I just refuse to accept that there are only 20 people within a couple hours of Ottawa interested in Service Rifle.
My question should have been phrased when was the last time a soldier shooting issue kit placed first overall at nscc? It wasn't last year.I don't remember the last time....maybe Mike Gray years ago.
NSCC has 9 days of shooting, in three disciplines, plus an additional day, for range staff to set up. August 29 through Sept. 7 this year. The pistol matches occupy two days, the precision matches two and a half days (including walk back zeroing), service rifle has a half day for walk back, and four days of matches.
A lot of folks who might be interested simply cannot free up the time to attend. NSCC dates are pretty much fixed; it needs to immediately precede CFSAC, because a lot of CF personnel shoot both NSCC and CFSAC. Travelling a distance once is enough of an issue; making the time and making two trips for two events isn't going to happen. There are also costs involved.
Traditionally, the PRA activities led directly to the national level competition with the DCRA. This is still pretty much the model for Target Rifle. It is no longer the case for Service Conditions.
Cost and availability of equipment for service pistol and for service should not be an impediment for anyone who really wants to compete. Precision rifle is a bit different; serious rifles, sights and support equipment are costly.
The comprehensive NSCC Rulebook is readily available. This facilitates preparation. No surprises. Anyone considering entering can study and practice. Any match organizer will find the instructions for the shooter, for the range officer and for the butts officer. This is intended to make assist anyone interested in conducting these matches. Each match, in all three disciplines, is designed as a stand alone event, focussing on a specific skill set, so that a tyro will not be overwhelmed.
Maybe shooters are equipment junkies. But service rifle and service pistol are disciplines where the shooter is far more important than the equipment. Big ticket, ultra sophisticated guns aren't needed.
A lot of folks who might be interested simply cannot free up the time to attend. NSCC dates are pretty much fixed; it needs to immediately precede CFSAC, because a lot of CF personnel shoot both NSCC and CFSAC. Travelling a distance once is enough of an issue; making the time and making two trips for two events isn't going to happen. There are also costs involved.
Traditionally, the PRA activities led directly to the national level competition with the DCRA. This is still pretty much the model for Target Rifle. It is no longer the case for Service Conditions.
Cost and availability of equipment for service pistol and for service should not be an impediment for anyone who really wants to compete. Precision rifle is a bit different; serious rifles, sights and support equipment are costly.
The comprehensive NSCC Rulebook is readily available. This facilitates preparation. No surprises. Anyone considering entering can study and practice. Any match organizer will find the instructions for the shooter, for the range officer and for the butts officer. This is intended to make assist anyone interested in conducting these matches. Each match, in all three disciplines, is designed as a stand alone event, focussing on a specific skill set, so that a tyro will not be overwhelmed.
Maybe shooters are equipment junkies. But service rifle and service pistol are disciplines where the shooter is far more important than the equipment. Big ticket, ultra sophisticated guns aren't needed.
In BC we had nearly 90 some odd people out at the bcra championships. Most were army.Maybe 20 civies. I dont think the issue is with the guns,ammo or anything else.It is simply the shooters. People just dont want to try it. Scared?Lazy?Intimidated?Never heard of SR? Issue guns?Space guns?Good ammo?Bad ammo? etc... the excuses are a mile long.For me none of this matters because?................................ NO ONE ADVERTISES THESE MATCHES! Simply people don't show up because they never heard of it. The only new folks are the ones that get dragged along by buddies that already shoot. Run some service rifle introduction days.Advertise the crap out of them at local ranges,gun shops etc. I know in BC the only one most guys hear about is the BC Championships and who wants to walk into that with no experience?
