Starr Carbine

mooncoon

mooncoon

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Being a bit of a recidivist, I went to a gun show about 2 weeks ago and a Starr carbine seems to have followed me home. The metal work looks virtually unfired and the bore is pristine. There is a bad break in the stock but I intend to separate that and reglue it properly. The caliber is 56-52 Spencer

StarrCarbineprofileb.jpg


The action is an extremely unusual one and could best be described as a falling block rolling block.

StarrCarbineactionopenb.jpg


the breach assembly is in two pieces. The front one rolls out of the way and the rear one is a falling block to keep the front part closed. Also what is extremely handy is that the extractor comes out and when the gun is 3/4 open, it snaps back again. The value is that it is awfully easy to get a rim ahead of the extractor and the shell stuck in the chamber. The Starr arrangement prevents that because the extractor is back nestled against the barrel when you load the gun.

I started by making a couple of solid brass shells but in a brief moment of lucidity, realized that the shell is the same base diameter as a 50-70 shell (and a .348 Winchester as well). I milled out the primer pocket to 1/4" and soft soldered a brass plug in place then drilled and milled a recess for a Hilti shell as a primer (rimfire cartridge). The bullet appears to be pretty short because the gun has a very slow rifling twist. I loaded the shells with 27 grains of 3F and took it to the range today. Seems to be fairly accurate at 25 yards but shoots about 1 foot high at that range. Next thing is to load some more shells and try it at 100 yards with a good tall target to make sure I am on the paper.

cheers mooncoon
 
Apart from the broken stock, its in much nicer shape than my percussion Starr. Fortunately it has a great bore, and breech. I was amazed that there is no apparent gas leakage.
I have to learn to make paper cartridges for it. So far I've been shooting loose powder. Drop in the bullet, fill the chamber, close, cap and bang.
 
Nice to see some pics of it, this is the one you were talkin about the other day. Very interesting gun. It takes apsects from other guns combines them. You make it sound so easy to make That rimfire ammo, I held back on a few guns this year because I wasnt sure what to do for ammo. That sums it up better though.

Might get a little .32 rf afterall.

Cheers, McLean
 
How does the percussion Starr deal with paper cartridges? Does it have a short tube to pierce the paper cartridge? With the rolling block front portion, I doubt that it could shear the paper off like a Sharps.

cheers mooncoon


tiriaq said:
Apart from the broken stock, its in much nicer shape than my percussion Starr. Fortunately it has a great bore, and breech. I was amazed that there is no apparent gas leakage.
I have to learn to make paper cartridges for it. So far I've been shooting loose powder. Drop in the bullet, fill the chamber, close, cap and bang.
Click to expand...
 
CMichaud said:
Any markings on the butt?
Click to expand...

No stampings on the butt, that I can see. And for Mclean; I think with the 32 rimfires, for most hand guns I think you can use Hilti shells and you can center them in the shell. Many of the handguns have a blade for a firing pin and located top dead center. On many of them the blade extends far enough down to strike a center mounted blank shell. You should make the rim about 15 thou thinner so that you are not using up energy on the solid rim as opposed to the rim of the blank.

For the larger rimfires, they are not hard to make as long as you have a metal lathe and use an endmill to open up the primer pocket so you can solder a plug in. What is important is to mill away the edge of the rim where the offset blank is because it will soak up enough energy to prevent firing the blank shell. On some guns like the Spencer, the firing pin strikes so much to the side that it may be difficult to get a blank out to the side far enough to be struck by the pin.

cheers mooncoon
 
Wow, what a beauty!!

If you use dowels and peg the stock together with acraglas she with be strong like krupp steel and will last another 150 years!!

That's a really amazing find!
 
The Starr paper cartridge had a firm tubular body with a nitrated base for the flash to penetrate. The breechface has a smooth projection, but does not pierce. Barrel breech has a male cone, breechblock has a matching groove. Rear block cams them together. When I first fired it, I had bullet lube all over the outside of the breech. After firing the lube was still there; no gas escape.
 
Starr carbine

Mooncoon

Recidivist my (_*_)! You're an arms historian! I recommend that you and Tiriaq get copies of "Civil War Carbines" - Myth vs Reality by Peter Schiffers. I got mine from "Man At Arms" magazine.

Schiffers tested 12 original Civil War carbines with ammunition as near to original specs as possible. He researched the ordnance reports on them, their quirks and known weaknesses and shot them at 55, 110 and 220 metres.

The Starr has a 1x42" twist and Schiffers reports that it has the best gas seal of ALL the carbines he tested. He fired more than 200 rds through his without a single misfire or cleaning the breec or nipple. He says that the Starr breech is the BEST one ever designed for linen/paper cartridges. Having two '63 percussion Shilohs, I can vouch for their gas sealing issues.

At the moment, my favourite ACW carbine is an ERMA Gallagher. I had the barrel relined to .50 and it prints sub-2" groups at 25 yds and rings a 10" x 12" gong at 50 yds every time.
This carbine is really archaic, but unique in that the barrel slides forward and down when you drop the lever. It has a two part chamber (one half in the barrel, one half in the receiver) I've yet to have a brass case stick in either the barrel or action, a problem with the originals.
 
I've subscribed to "Man at Arms" for quite some time, and have some of their publications, but not that one.
 
Civil War carbines

"Man At Arms" will happily send you a copy for @29.99 plus S&H. Order direct:
manatarmsbooks.com ISBN 1931464-33-2

What impressed me about this book was Schiffers thoroughness - Deutscher Ordnung all, the way! He left no stone unturned in his pursuit of a true historic evaluation.

If he couldn't find an ordnance reference to the use of bullet lube, he didn't use it. If he did, he reproduced the lube. I won't spoil it fr you by telling you which carbine led the pack overall, but I will tell you that the Gallagher was dead last!
The Starr had a bore of .545 and groove dia. 563. Attempts to use Sharps paper rds in it were not successful and they had to order specific ammo for the Starr.

If the historic Gallaghers were like my ERMA-made repro, it would have been ranked higher by Schiffer. The originals suffered from a much too slow rate of twist.
I had mine relined to .50 so I could use the 425 gr Lyman 515141s I use in my 50-70s. It was a good idea.
 
Funnily enough I was lent a copy of "Civil War Guns" by William Edwards tonight. It is a hard copy book and I will have to start reading it forthwith. The most complete testing of muzzle loading guns that I know of is "the Rifle" by Hans Busk written in 1862 where apparently shot the guns of all of the world's armies prior to writing the book

One strong point for the cartridge Starr is the extractor. It covers close to 1/4 of the rim unlike the blade shaped Spencer extractor and is much stronger than the Spencer. Also as mentioned before it snaps back into the barrel before the breach is all the way open which prevents getting the shell rim jammed ahead of the extractor. The one weak point of the system is that I find it awkward removing shells from the gun. They are sort of down in a hole in the receiver and do not come straight back but have to come up a bit to clear the back of the receiver.

cheers mooncoon
 
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