I know I'm gunna ruffle some feathers with this but I will be experimenting from a vice at a safe distance. I have a 16 SxS Damascus underlever with cylinder bores. I load full brass magtech brass with real black powder not synthetic. I use cardboard wads for lead but I've been considering using 16ga plastic wads with the base cut off and cardboard wads underneath, leaving just the shot cup to hold the steel and ensure it doesn't touch the barrel during firing. I've used this SxS with 16ga cast round balls for deer and have used it for upland with no issues. I'd like to find a way to reload steel to take ducks and geese traditionally but legally. Can anybody give me a real reason that this wouldn't work. I know I'm wasting my time and could use one of my pump 12ga's with 3" BB and a screw in mod choke but that's not the point, I want to use this SxS with steel and would appreciate any ideas on how to reload these so that the steel shot won't contact the barrel during firing. Thanks in advance
Steel shot in a Damascus cartridge gun
- Thread starter Rebelson
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What choke? It's cylinder/cylinder
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I noticed when cleaning some shotgun barrels - what I think are lead scour marks - so as if the shot got compressed and squished out the side of the shot cup on the trip up the barrel. Also was remnants of "plastic" in the bore. I use a longish cleaning rod in my 3/8" drill - spin an appropriate gauge bore brush from breech to muzzle - fully back and forth a few times - I use the alternate "Ed's Red" juice with no acetone - the bores seem to be shiny like a mirror after running a patch through. I did mention lead, not steel - I do not do much shotgun hunting any more, but is almost all lead shot for grouse - I have not shot at migratory birds for several decades.
Several factors in play here. None in support of your proposal.
1. Steel shot ( actually unhardened iron) is harder than composite ( damascus, twist, etc) barrel material. Much harder. If it compresses or scrubs through the plastic shotcup on it’s way down the barrel it WILL mark the inside of the barrel. In many cases it will even mark modern steel barrels and did so with some of the earlier steel shot ammo until new stiffer and thicker wads were designed to overcome this. It’s not uncommon today to find shotguns with steel shot damage from the 1960’s, ‘70’s.
2. Steel shot does not compress. Unlike much softer lead, when a closely packed group of steel shot slams into the beginning of the choke constriction it won’t compress to squeeze through. There is no give, no way for that group of shot to get through except by momentarily expanding ( opening) the choke diameter to let it through. This can and frequently does cause a permanently bulged barrel just before the choke even on the best of tightly choked modern steel barrels. Composite steel barrels deform even more from this abuse and can also crack. If the barrel has little or no constriction ( choke) then the steel shot will pass without bulging the barrel.
3. Another factor to consider is the tremendous extra strain you are putting on a gun that is likely well over 120 years old, maybe more than 150. Aside from the original integrity of the barrels ( and you have no way of knowing how well made they were ) you are putting a huge extra strain on the solder joints between the barrels, the ribs and the lump ( the part that locks the barrels into the action). That beautiful ancient walnut stock is now brittle and somewhat vulnerable to excessive shock, especially around the locks and at the grip. Your underlever action, if a typical Jones type double screw grip, is plenty strong enough if still well fitted but the extra recoil caused by the unyielding constriction can only cause negative results on a vintage gun.
By far the best solution is Bismuth shot. Very effective, readily available, ample loading data available and it won’t damage your gun. Upsize one size of shot ( use #4 or #3 instead of #5, #1 or BB instead of #2), stay within the range of your gun and you’ll be pleased with the results. The only negative is the higher cost of the Bismuth shot but for hunting only as opposed to target use your ammunition will be very minor compared to your gas cost to get to and from the hunt.
1. Steel shot ( actually unhardened iron) is harder than composite ( damascus, twist, etc) barrel material. Much harder. If it compresses or scrubs through the plastic shotcup on it’s way down the barrel it WILL mark the inside of the barrel. In many cases it will even mark modern steel barrels and did so with some of the earlier steel shot ammo until new stiffer and thicker wads were designed to overcome this. It’s not uncommon today to find shotguns with steel shot damage from the 1960’s, ‘70’s.
2. Steel shot does not compress. Unlike much softer lead, when a closely packed group of steel shot slams into the beginning of the choke constriction it won’t compress to squeeze through. There is no give, no way for that group of shot to get through except by momentarily expanding ( opening) the choke diameter to let it through. This can and frequently does cause a permanently bulged barrel just before the choke even on the best of tightly choked modern steel barrels. Composite steel barrels deform even more from this abuse and can also crack. If the barrel has little or no constriction ( choke) then the steel shot will pass without bulging the barrel.
3. Another factor to consider is the tremendous extra strain you are putting on a gun that is likely well over 120 years old, maybe more than 150. Aside from the original integrity of the barrels ( and you have no way of knowing how well made they were ) you are putting a huge extra strain on the solder joints between the barrels, the ribs and the lump ( the part that locks the barrels into the action). That beautiful ancient walnut stock is now brittle and somewhat vulnerable to excessive shock, especially around the locks and at the grip. Your underlever action, if a typical Jones type double screw grip, is plenty strong enough if still well fitted but the extra recoil caused by the unyielding constriction can only cause negative results on a vintage gun.
By far the best solution is Bismuth shot. Very effective, readily available, ample loading data available and it won’t damage your gun. Upsize one size of shot ( use #4 or #3 instead of #5, #1 or BB instead of #2), stay within the range of your gun and you’ll be pleased with the results. The only negative is the higher cost of the Bismuth shot but for hunting only as opposed to target use your ammunition will be very minor compared to your gas cost to get to and from the hunt.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
There are a few boxes of "Hevi-Shot" for "Classic Doubles" here - was a really frightening cost when purchased - boxes of 10 rounds of 28 gauge were $28.99 - likely when promo 12 gauge lead was $3.99 or $5.99 per 20 or 25 rounds, or similar. They are bismuth #7 shot - I do not know if that line of ammo is still made or not - not obvious to me, looking at the boxes who made it, unless "Hevi-Shot" was an ammo maker. I would guess for a box of 10 or two boxes, would be best way to get a goose with that old one.
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OK, let us know how it works.
As mentioned above, you are shooting shot that is harder than the barrels, and does not compress. Cylinder choke is one thing - but the shot charge and cup has to get through the forcing cone from the chamber into the bore, when pressure is at its peak.
As mentioned above, you are shooting shot that is harder than the barrels, and does not compress. Cylinder choke is one thing - but the shot charge and cup has to get through the forcing cone from the chamber into the bore, when pressure is at its peak.
Wow, misread as IC bores. The shot cup should keep the steel off the barrel entirely if its straight C.
The difference in cost between good quality factory steel ammo and good quality Bismuth reloads is minor. Bismuth isn’t expensive, damaging a gun is expensive.
I understand what your saying, but I cannot justify using 80 dollars in bismuth through a 200 dollar 16ga Damascus SxS, also I don't know of any company's selling black powder bismuth loads. I cannot and will not use factory smokeless bismuth loads in a 2 1/2" Chambered Damascus shotgun...But if blackpowder #BB loads destroys the barrels I'll hang it on the wall and post the result for others to learn from it, if it works I get to shoot at geese and ducks on my farm with BP and steel for next to nothing and others learn that it can be done in the proper circumstances. This is a theory that I'm willing to destroy the firearm to prove once and for all if it can be done in cylinder bore Damascus guns that are in firing condition. Stay tuned, might just get to see pictures of a SxS come apart at the ribs... or a limit of ducks. Ether way it'll be fun to try from a distance with a string for the first 15 rounds. Half the fun is in trying to prove theory's you came up with and sharing the good or bad results with the rest of the community, if we don't try how would we learn...
Just because the gun doesn’t come apart the first time you shoot this load doesn’t mean that this won’t happen on the next or the tenth shot. You are only probing what the gun survived, not what it WILL survive. Your gun, your fingers, your face, good luck.
Bismuth shot is sold in 7 lb containers....about 85 loads at 1.25 oz per load. 15 years ago it cost $135 CDN but when I bought some last year from Ballistics Products it was up to about $235 plus shipping. That's close to $3 per shot for the pellets alone but at least I can load BP cartridges for my old Chas. Osborne hammer damascus double and 12 ga muzzle loader as I would for lead loads without any need for special wads or other considerations. I know steel pellets for reloading are cheaper than Bismuth but is the difference in cost worth the risk to damage or write off a nice old gun? Good luck with your experiment and we anxiously await your report.....
the SxS will be straped down in a gun vice and test fired with atleast 15-20 shells, ill even double down... i just did a basic re proof of this SxS today 5 shells per barrel loaded with 130 grains of 2f Schuetzen from a shot measure scoop and used it for the shot aswell for overpressure sqaure loads in a 16ga. The SxS pased with flying colours from the vice, ill do the same with BB steel for the experiment (130grn sqaure loads). After that I will check the bore for visible damage ie scratches and bugles. After that I will take the OD bore measurements I've already taken every 2 inchs from chamber to crown and compare them to SxS After the test firing, then ill ring the barrels. With no damage I'll call it a successful experiment and ill confidently shoulder it with 70-80 grn sqaure loads, if it blows apart in the gun vice we learn. My face won't be near this if the gun receives any damage. What do you have against experiments in a controlled environment on a range on my property? I'm not endangering anyone and it will be rope fired from 20ft away behind a trucks engine bay, it's a cheap Belgian and I can afford to buy another one or 4 if this one turns into Damascus confetti in the vice, plus I get one hell of a cool story and a conversation piece. If it passes I can shoot ducks and geese with a BP with super cheap steel shot at 70-80grn for next to nothing. Wouldn't you like to push the limits of an beat up antique in a vice from a string in the name of science and a fews laughs with friends before buying another one to test?
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Well friend you asked for feedback and replies. Did you really expect that all your solicited comments would be favourably cheering you on? It really makes no difference to me, I’ll likely never meet you, hunt or shoot with you or even remember your quest in a months time. You do what you like, if you hadn’t asked for feedback in the first place I likely wouldn’t have commented at all. I don’t indulge in online pi$$ing matches, have fun, I’m out of this conversation.
Black powder melts the plastic wads in the bore..causing restriction, every round creates more plastoc residue in the bore...therefore decreasing bore dia..and constriction is made, this is why lead is used and fiber wads......i shoot several Damascus/twist guns...the only safe non tox shot would be BISMUTH or TSS... As they perform like lead.
Its a big NO NO for steel in a Damascus gun...
The pressures and velocity BP would make would make steel ineffective in killing power..steel needs speed..BP wouldnt get over 1100fps ,simply put..waste of shot..easte of components and possible to damage your gun and or injure yourself
Its a big NO NO for steel in a Damascus gun...
The pressures and velocity BP would make would make steel ineffective in killing power..steel needs speed..BP wouldnt get over 1100fps ,simply put..waste of shot..easte of components and possible to damage your gun and or injure yourself
Ill word it like this...there are no factory loaded
Black powder steel shot loads...nor any load manual containing them....( its simply not feasable) and the guns are not proofed for steel shot.)
I did see a video in England a nitro proofed Damascus gun eas fired with ( std load steel) it worked...but..
How many after proof fire before a persons in the duck blind with friends...pulls up his sxs Damascus with experimental loads...and KABOOM
You get the bird..but you also lost a hand on process...
Im sorry if its not published data...your playing with a pipe bomb in my 25 plus yrs exp shooting Damascus guns
Black powder steel shot loads...nor any load manual containing them....( its simply not feasable) and the guns are not proofed for steel shot.)
I did see a video in England a nitro proofed Damascus gun eas fired with ( std load steel) it worked...but..
How many after proof fire before a persons in the duck blind with friends...pulls up his sxs Damascus with experimental loads...and KABOOM
You get the bird..but you also lost a hand on process...
Im sorry if its not published data...your playing with a pipe bomb in my 25 plus yrs exp shooting Damascus guns
If you are shooting waterfowl on your own ground just use lead shot. Been used for hundreds of years and I suspect more ducks have been wounded and lost with steel shot than ever died from lead poisoning except in locations with huge amounts of shooters.
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