Stock making?

[TrxR]

What are you guys that make you own stocks use for tool to inlet and do the barrel channel?

I was thinking a Box bit in a router for the barrel channel and some forstner bits in a drill press and chisel for the action as it square.

Any tips and tricks would be appreciated as this will be my first try at it.

Thanks

 

[sean69]

You might find some tips in my thread here: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1575963-Just-somethin-I-been-working-on-NEW-PROJECT

Barrel channel, set up a guide &/or jig to hog it out with a router (undersize) generally you will be able to find a round nosed bit smaller than your smallest barrel diameter. Finish it up with scrapers and chisels. You can make purpose built round nosed scrapers from a cheap $7 pack of cabinet scrapers. I usually make 2 or 3 single use scrapers per project. Will be one of your most useful tools and cheapest!!
You can do the entire barrel channel with a chisel, but that is a lot of work. you could also do it on a drill press with forstner bits... again, more work. The only way to improve on the router method would be by using a mill........ but not many of us have one of those lying around.

Action, again, router to get the gross material out of there. absolutely use a guide &/or jig. Clean/square it up with chisels, files and scrapers. Throw away the forstner bits.


Chisels, you can probably get by with Canadian Tire chisels, but it won't be fun & you will be sharpening them every other cut & they are quite a bit heavier than a carving chisel. If you decide to buy, I've tried both Two Cherries & Pfiel, I find the Two Cherries hold their edge longer and have a better starting geometry. These suckers are $40-$60 each, so choose CAREFULLY, I have about 20 of them now, but started with only what I needed & built up. Starting with about 3 worked, still there are only 6-8 I use regularly and 3 I use on every job (5mm straight chisel, 20mm straight chisel, 6/9 sweep straight gouge) Chip carving knives are also invaluable.
Sharp, sharp-sharp-sharp..... keep them sharp, save yourself grief. I strop every 5th - 10th cut and usually hone at least once a session....

Router, the more horsepower the better, you need a variable speed for hardwoods as well, also you can get by just fine with straight cutters, but upcut spiral bits will make life WAY easier (less cuts) not sure if the spiral bits are available with rounded noses. (that would be SWEET!) You don't need carbide, HSS will be just fine (and easier to maintain)

Measuring tools, precision 6" machinists ruler, one or more 3"/4" precision machinists squares, a striking knife and sharp pencils, for longer stocks a good straight edge or long steel ruler will be needed. One of my favorites & best money spent was a veritas marking guage from Lee Valley. http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=59455&cat=1,42936,59455 - absolutely invaluable.

Abrasives, throw out all your Canadian Tire sandpaper and never look back. Go to home depot & buy the Norton sheet abrasives .... you will be shocked at how bad CT papers are. For files, well.... CT and Princess Auto files are all single use POC - but you can struggle through with them. you can get a nice 6pc set of Norton files from Amazon for about $40 & will cover 99% of what you need. Rasps are a different story, any hardware bought rasp is gonna give you meh results and dull fast. but you may be stuck with that option as a quality rasp will start around $80 (each) I use the Auriou hand stitched Rasps ... never looked back. I use a grain 3 (special order) a grain 9 & have a grain 11 inbound. you can get by with the coarsest of grains (3) for shaping the stock and LONG you want your rasp to be at least 10" - 12" is better, as is wider. Sadly the Aurious cost starts around $150 each. (why I only have 3) There are other options though, there is a nice roundup here: https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/half-round-cabinet-rasps

So you can easily spend more on tools than the gun is worth but in reality you can get by with a bare minimum. But crap (or dull) tools ar just going to runin your finger, work or mental stability. Like they say, "It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools" - is a flat out lie, sometimes it is the POS tool.


Plan it out on paper, lay it out on your blank and have at it... it would be best/easiest for layout/measurement if you were to both plane the blank and square up the top.. leave it for a bit to make sure it doesn't want to warp or do anything weird.

If you have spent $800 on some imported Turkish walnut blank that looks like god smiled upon, maybe consider hitting the lumber yard for some poplar and turn out a few dozen practice stocks first.

-enjoy!

 

[B_noser]

sean69 that was an excellent response!
I would like to add two things.
One of the most important, if not THE most important, skills to master is sharpening. Tools should be kept razor sharp and the tool shape and included angle should be right for the job. The Complete Guide To Sharpening by Leonard Lee (Lee Valley Tools) is an excellent resource but nothing beats practice and experimentation. Master the sharpening before tackling a stocking project.
I envy the high quality tools Sean69 has accumulated. I haunt yard sales and flea markets for higher quality older tools and restore/reshape them. Fleabay can also be a good source and I would add Henry Taylor to the brands already mentioned. I prefer firmer over butt length chisels. The extra length adds significantly to control. Excellent scrapers can be cut out of old hand saws. Avoid the taper ground saws. I have two sets graduated from 1/16 to 1/2 inch radius in 1/16 inch increments. One set has a hook and one doesn't. That's a little more than one would need for straight gunstocking, but I also play around with building and carving longrifles.

 

[sean69]

sean69 that was an excellent response!

THNKS! always trying to help..

I would like to add two things.
One of the most important, if not THE most important, skills to master is sharpening. Tools should be kept razor sharp and the tool shape and included angle should be right for the job. The Complete Guide To Sharpening by Leonard Lee (Lee Valley Tools) is an excellent resource but nothing beats practice and experimentation. Master the sharpening before tackling a stocking project.

Yes, I'm afraid I didn't reinforce that enough.... especially highly figured woods (I'm looking at you curly and birdseye Maple ~ the a$$holes of hardwoods) The variances of density and chaotic directions the grains take will grab a dull tool and send your cut to who knows where. +1 Learn to sharpen (which I suppose means a good set of stones - I lucked out, Dad brought a lot home from an auction that included a nice diamond plate, a beautiful old wa####a stone (my favorite) and two large arkansas stones (one of which I had dropped recently ) - a good $400 in rocks for like $10!!!

I envy the high quality tools Sean69 has accumulated.

As do I - to be fair, a $150 Auriou rasp *IS* a lifetime purchase (they can actually be re-stitched when they get dull!). I'm also crazy for shop made tools, marking gauges, banding tools, I made my striking knives & awls from tool steel rods.... etc-etc-etc with a bit of practise & ingenuity you can make darned near any tool you need. I'm pretty picky about buying what is only NEEDED and spending the $$ on quality.

I haunt yard sales and flea markets for higher quality older tools and restore/reshape them. Fleabay can also be a good source and I would add Henry Taylor to the brands already mentioned. I prefer firmer over butt length chisels. The extra length adds significantly to control.

I've been looking at the Henry Taylor stuff recently - the Two cherries are hard to get, I usually have to special order them.... Have you used the Pfiel or 2C? I like the 2C for the edge retention.... but yes, longer is generally what I like, 8"-10" lengths allow hand use or striking with a mallet.
I still have on my bucket list a project to make some chisels ... hardenable tool steel is easy to come by (I have a metal supply less than 5 minutes away)

Excellent scrapers can be cut out of old hand saws. Avoid the taper ground saws. I have two sets graduated from 1/16 to 3/4 inch radius in 1/16 inch increments. One set has a hook and one doesn't. That's a little more than one would need for straight gunstocking,

+1 I have at least 2 saws collecting rust ear marked for this. though I generally prefer thinner steel.

but I also play around with building and carving longrifles.

Funny - that's where I started, wanted a Pedersoli Jaeger but didn't want to drop the $2k & 12 month wait on it..... realized that they made this stuff hundreds of years ago with hand tools....... a quick stop at Track of the wolf, a barrel & lock..... = Jaeger Now I can have as many boom sticks as I like.


So yea, sharpening... lots of planning and measuring, go slow, ask questions. and when you get to finishing hit up the woodworker and luthier forums.

 

[sean69]

hahah, caught by the curse word filter - that "wa####a" stone is pronounced wha-shee-tah, but spelled like poo

 

[mooncoon]

I use a lot of home made scrapers and goose neck chisels. They are crude and ugly but they work. I use worn out chainsaw files and drill rod for material and after shaping heat them red hot and water quench then reheat to somewhere in the dark brown to purple range. The goose neck chisels are handy for working in grooves because it allows you to get the cutting edge down flat on the material when you are working in a groove as inletting a lock or cutting a barrel channel. I grind the scrapers to match the contour of the barrel I am inletting and they have the advantage of not digging in when the grain is angling down (or at least not digging in nearly as much as a chisel). My stock making leaves much to be desired but those tools allow me to get a lot closer to what I am trying to do.

cheers mooncoon

 

[TrxR]

Thanks guys. My first attempt will be practice on scrap material , then the good stock on a laminate blank nothing overly pricey as it is for a ftr rifle. Ive got plenty of good power tools but not that many hand tool. I also have my father here who is a carpenter /cabinet maker and his tools . Ill look into some good rasps as i need them.

Thanks

 

[tiriaq]

Forstner bits can be very useful in removing wood in a controlled manner.
I've had good service from the barrel channel scrapers that Brownells sells.

 

[B_noser]

mooncoon - I like those goose necks. And a little blacksmith flair at the tail end to protect the palm.

 

[B_noser]

THNKS! Have you used the Pfiel or 2C?

No, I have not used either brand. Nearly all of my non shop made carving tools are old Henry Taylor stuff with the odd old Buck thrown in. My flat out favorite chisel was cold-ground out of an old file. Extremely brittle and a small included angle and MAN does it cut.

 

[tharkhold]

Sub'd!

I want to make a stock and foreguards for my Valmet...

 

[sean69]

I use a lot of home made scrapers and goose neck chisels. They are crude and ugly but they work. I use worn out chainsaw files and drill rod for material and after shaping heat them red hot and water quench then reheat to somewhere in the dark brown to purple range. The goose neck chisels are handy for working in grooves because it allows you to get the cutting edge down flat on the material when you are working in a groove as inletting a lock or cutting a barrel channel. I grind the scrapers to match the contour of the barrel I am inletting and they have the advantage of not digging in when the grain is angling down (or at least not digging in nearly as much as a chisel). My stock making leaves much to be desired but those tools allow me to get a lot closer to what I am trying to do.

Interesting ~ using a flat scraper can be difficult (fatiguing) in a barrel channel, a handled scraper looks like it would solve that, how are the materials you use at holding the burr?

IMO/IME I don't find grinding a scraper to match a barrel profile particularly useful. Tapered, stepped, swamped and barrels that have multiple tapers(profiles) kind of defy that, also I found that when I did have a straight barrel (only 2 so far) if I did try to use a scraper the same size as the barrel channel it would nearly always bring the sides out of dimension. Maybe it's more useful to describe my use of a scraper as tuning up a surface rather than trying to shape/profile. (??)

 

[sean69]

Thanks guys. My first attempt will be practice on scrap material , then the good stock on a laminate blank nothing overly pricey as it is for a ftr rifle. Ive got plenty of good power tools but not that many hand tool. I also have my father here who is a carpenter /cabinet maker and his tools . Ill look into some good rasps as i need them.

Thanks

I do not believe I have ever seen anything hand carved from a laminate (nor have I actually looked) but I think that's gonna get pretty hairy pretty quickly! Lot of resins in there, gonna be real hard on your tools.

Have you got a source for laminate blanks?

 

[tiriaq]

A friend routinely carves stocks from laminated blanks.

 

[sean69]

Forstner bits can be very useful in removing wood in a controlled manner.
I've had good service from the barrel channel scrapers that Brownells sells.

"quality" forstner bits Crap Tire/Princess Auto bits will shred and burn your work.

 

[sean69]

Sub'd!

I want to make a stock and foreguards for my Valmet...

Saw your post in the other thread .... go for it!! Looked up the Valmet too, neat looking gun. Kinda want one now, it would look absolutely sick all dressed up in a Dragunov style stock!

 

[mooncoon]

Interesting ~ using a flat scraper can be difficult (fatiguing) in a barrel channel, a handled scraper looks like it would solve that, how are the materials you use at holding the burr?

IMO/IME I don't find grinding a scraper to match a barrel profile particularly useful. Tapered, stepped, swamped and barrels that have multiple tapers(profiles) kind of defy that, also I found that when I did have a straight barrel (only 2 so far) if I did try to use a scraper the same size as the barrel channel it would nearly always bring the sides out of dimension. Maybe it's more useful to describe my use of a scraper as tuning up a surface rather than trying to shape/profile. (??)

I don't burnish the scrapers, if that is the correct word for creating the burr. I just grind the edge at a 45 degree angle and they seem to cut fine. Drill rod is I think around .9% carbon and the ability to hold the burr probably depends on what temperature you draw the temper to. After water hardening them, I draw the cutting portion to around dark brown which is still fairly hard. In terms of matching the shape to the barrel including its dimensions, I use scrapers that are a little smaller than the barrel but the same shape; in other words on a tapered or swamped barrel I use two or three similar scrapers, all with a 1/2 octagon or 1/2 round shape so that they are not (hopefully) cutting the barrel channel too wide but are maintaining the correct contour to the barrel channel. With an octagon barrel, I find it hard to get the correct shape using chisels and that is where the scrapers come in to clean up the last portion of the bedding. Also I had a small narrow scraper in the photo and ones like that are handy for finishing the recess for a mainspring in a muzzle loader or a shotgun with sidelocks or back action locks and also for ram rod channels

In terms of tiring on the hands; I pull with my right hand and hold the blade down with my left hand and I think that is a lot less tiring that holding a flat plate in your hand. I think what got me started using scrapers was seeing a photo of a 1930 or 40s gunsmith's bench and at the back on the wall there were a lot of sort of L shaped tools of some sort. I came to think they were probably scrapers (and still think that)

I should emphasize again; I don't have the patience or skill to be particularly good at inleting or general shaping of a stock but I posted the photo of the scrapers and chisels to give others some ideas of ways of shortening their learning curve. I have come to think that gunsmiths and stock makers in the 1800s were able to speed a lot of their work and be precise in shaping and so forth, by using templates and jigs as well as specialized tools suited for the particular job they had to do repeatably. When you read of companies signing contracts to deliver large numbers of guns for the US civil war for example, even with large work forces and long hours, they must have had templates and guides to do the work very quickly

cheers mooncoon

 

[sealevel]

if i could post pic.s i would show how i make scrapers. but for files i go to garage sales and buy old files and rasps...soak them in vinegar for 3 or 4 days some come out like new . old chisels also sometimes you have to put new handles on them .but the old stuff is better then you get new today . the one tool i use a lot is an auto body bondo file .works real good for keeping things straight .

 

[sean69]

I don't burnish the scrapers, if that is the correct word for creating the burr.

Maybe - not sure, you raise the burr with a burnisher (top of first pic) - so it will serve for this conversation.

ummmm... have you tried putting a burr on your tools? a burr will actually shave material off it looks like you are literally scraping.?? If you are REALLY good with a scraper, you can create a surface that does not need any sanding! (I'm not yet)

In terms of tiring on the hands; I pull with my right hand and hold the blade down with my left hand and I think that is a lot less tiring that holding a flat plate in your hand. I think what got me started using scrapers was seeing a photo of a 1930 or 40s gunsmith's bench and at the back on the wall there were a lot of sort of L shaped tools of some sort. I came to think they were probably scrapers (and still think that)

Working with a small awkwardly shaped sharp piece of metal makes my hand sore pretty quick...
You definitely did give me some thoughts on how to improve the scraper situation... but I went a slightly different way.
Spent a couple hours working on it, but the results are good.

Pics should tell the whole story:

Shop Scraper MkI & MkII, MkI (bottom) did not make it through the prototyping phase

used a Lee Valley file handle that was laying about

It works!!

So yea - I can make different sized/shaped blades/inserts for the handle in just a few minutes more than I was before & tey are smaller, increasing my yield from a cabinet scraper.

I should emphasize again; I don't have the patience or skill to be particularly good at inleting or general shaping of a stock but I posted the photo of the scrapers and chisels to give others some ideas of ways of shortening their learning curve. I have come to think that gunsmiths and stock makers in the 1800s were able to speed a lot of their work and be precise in shaping and so forth, by using templates and jigs as well as specialized tools suited for the particular job they had to do repeatably. When you read of companies signing contracts to deliver large numbers of guns for the US civil war for example, even with large work forces and long hours, they must have had templates and guides to do the work very quickly

Oh I imagine you get pretty fast at it if that's all you do everyday all day Military contracts and armouries did use stock duplicators - never seen one, but I gather there is one in a museum somewhere in Finland I think. (?) Jigs fixtures, absolutely - it would be interesting to try and find out what exactly though.

 

[mooncoon]

Oh I imagine you get pretty fast at it if that's all you do everyday all day Military contracts and armouries did use stock duplicators - never seen one, .

I think there may have been one or two photos of them in a book on Harper's Ferry ; I know I have seen the photos somewhere. My impression is that using a pantograph like we would use today, they used a series of machines for specific portions and the machines I think were more or less like milling machines of today. I believe Springfield armory pioneered the stock making machines in the early 1800s and Harper's Ferry dragged their feet on using them for quite a while because the gunsmiths there were older and very traditionalist. If my memory is correct, a stock could be made in well under an hour and I think in under 1/2 hour. Interestingly enough, milling machines for metal did not come along until much later

cheers mooncoon