So if in your opinion archery tackle is as effective as a centerfire rifle. How do you reconcile WMU's allowing 90 days of archery and only 14 days of centerfire? Why are archery harvest numbers so much lower than rifle if it's equally effective?
Straight wall cartridges in shotun only deer zones?
- Thread starter flyinlead
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So if in your opinion archery tackle is as effective as a centerfire rifle. How do you reconcile WMU's allowing 90 days of archery and only 14 days of centerfire? Why are archery harvest numbers so much lower than rifle if it's equally effective?
So you don’t think in a controlled season where hunters had the option of “ML, SG, or straight walled” instead of just “ML and SG”, that there would be more deer harvested? If so, I mostly disagree. Yes, modern shotguns and muzzle loaders can offer performance much closer to straight walled rifles, but how many people are using the top end of the spectrum? Even a basic 45-70 is a 200 yard gun. But a basic shotgun isn’t. (Or a basic slug).
An awful lot of the guys in the controlled hunts are just running their basic smooth bore shotguns, and relying on deer drives to get animals within range. I would guess that only about 10% of the guys are running shotguns capable of imitating the performance of a basic 45-70. If you flipped a switch to turn the other 90% into 200 yard hunters, I think you’d see a pretty significant uptick in the number of deer taken.
Just my 2 cents.
No one said that. I didn't even IMPLY that.
Not a significant amount, no. Going from 100-150 yard effective range, to 200 isn't in my opinion, going to yield a ton more downed deer. Remembering that regs deal with generalities, not exceptions; the majority of hunters aren't going to have the chops to make a 200+ yard shot with a cartridge that has a rainbow flight path.
Anyone looked into the effect of straightwall on harvest numbers in Ohio or Michigan?
Your reading comprehension is lacking and you seem shaky on the meaning of 'or'. Go back and reread all the posts I wrote. Start with the first one that said, "The categorization that Ontario currently uses is ridiculous. Muzzleloaders that are as good as any center fire out to ranges well past what most shotguns can manage, crossbows in the same category as traditional bows, a caliber restriction that completely ignores that caliber doesn't actually govern anything about how reasonable or dangerous a round can be in terms of energy and travel."
The issue is that traditional archery equipment that is unwieldy, has minimal mechanical advantage, and requires a drawing motion at the time of engagement is in the same category in our current Ontario regulations as a new generation crossbow that is cocked well before use, is 6 inches across while cocked and very comfortable and easy to pack and maneuver with, and uses all the modern technology and optics to provide maximum advantage that a longbow just can't match. (As an example in Alberta archery season does not include crossbows unless you have a doctors note for a shoulder injury or something of that nature.) In the same vein smooth bore shotguns with just a bead do not have the efficacy of a rifled slug gun with a scope or even less so some of the new muzzle loaders. The muzzleloaders some of my buddies have are a MUCH more capable deer harvesting machine then even specific center fire rifles. For example a short barreled carbine using a pistol caliber, even more so if iron sighted is no way near as capable. A 458 win mag is MORE capable than the muzzleloader obviously, and thus my concern about 'straight wall' as the line in the sand.
Are you caught up now on what conversation is actually taking place?
Archery would be more reasonable if it included longbows and compound bows only. Maybe a new 'season' could include smooth bore shotguns and crossbows and run for 30 days rather than the 90 of current archery? Maybe straight wall cartridges would be a good accompaniment to muzzleloaders and rifled shotguns for some of the controlled hunts? I don't know and that level of fidelity needs to be closely examined and weighed against all the factors but some of that quick spitballing like in this last paragraph would objectively contain more sense then the current Ontario hunting regs.
I think this whole conversation is moot, its never going to happen. From the rumblings I've heard over the last 15 years, Ontario is more likely to go total shotgun/muzzleloader through the entire province than go back the other way, as more subdivisions are built in rural areas for the city commuters. Just hope its not in my lifetime.
Might as well include inlines as they are to primitive weapon season too.
Always got 'that guy' who can't just abide by the norm in hunting hunting season. Got to look for that edge, even if it pretty much defeats the whole purpose.
Neat.
Very net, but I have no illusions about how common they are to see afield, or how quickly they reload compared to a long bow or a recurve. The axle to axle width also appears narrower than the overall width, so there's that. Certainly an interesting innovation though.
Isn't education fun!
canadian hunter312
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Seeing as bows may not be used during the controlled hunts in most WMU's, I would say shotguns have their own season that's shared with muzzleloaders in many WMU's. Very few use muzzeloaders which is why most refer to the controlled hunts in Southern Ontario as the "shotgun hunt" or "shotgun season".
Are any WMU's restricted to shotgun only during the controlled hunt?
No actually. Any time shotguns are allowed so are muzzleloaders. Here is the quote from the regs:
"Controlled Deer Hunt Notes:
Unless otherwise indicated, only shotguns and muzzle-loading guns are permitted in
controlled deer hunts.
* indicates that only muzzle-loading guns are permitted.
+ indicates that only bows and muzzle-loading guns are permitted.
^ indicates that rifles, shotguns and muzzle-loading guns are permitted."
Beg to differ, there are controlled hunts that are Muzzleloader only in WMU 92 for sure and possibly a couple others. I am pretty sure the WMU 92 hunt was declared a Heritage hunt in some form or other back in the early 2000's to keep it muzzleloader only. The ministry looked at the success numbers in our area and due to high numbers figured putting shotguns in the area and increasing hunter numbers was a good idea. Unfortunately, many of the landowners made it perfectly clear the existing hunt was fine but bring in large numbers of hunters with shotguns "No One would hunt"
I live on the border of WMU 93-92. One side of the road is Muzzleloader only the other side is Shotgun or Muzzleloader. Everybody I know hunts with a muzzleloader and we tag out early most years. Shotgunners where I live, not so much and with miles of standing corn this year it will be tough on the drives.
I think you misread his comment.
He was saying there are no “shotgun only” seasons.
I think you took it the other way around.
Well, to follow up on my earlier post...
The reason I figure things are essentially best left alone, is that the essential reason there ever became either shotgun only, or shotgun/muzzle loader zones, was because shotguns and muzzle loaders at that time were very limited in range and capability, both energy and accuracy wise. So they were able to make a case, for having a time set aside for those willing to put in the effort, and they were able to make a case for that they were not flinging lead at the same distances the rifle hunters were, so we're safer ( so the argument goes) to be nearer to houses.
It was only in more recent times, that guys looked at the letter of the law and found ways to turn the disadvantage that it started out as, in to essentially even footing with rifle hunters.
My personal thoughts are, that raising the issue as if it will help the shotgunners/ML set, is that it will serve only to point out the very minimum of difference in capability and range that the modern 'gamed' versions of those pursuits, have become, and if anything, all I can see coming out of it is outright closure of areas that are currently open to hunt in. For the childrens!
I kinda like what a couple of the States have done, in calling it a primitive weapons season. No scopes. No repeaters. Guys that want to shoot smokeless. muzzle loaders, or scoped, rifled sabot shotguns, get to take them out the same time as all the rifle hunters.
I find it funny too, that somehow being a straight wall case is supposed to make it all better. Like a .444 Marlin, or .458 Win Mag. As opposed to any of the black powder bottle neck cartridges, like say, .577-450, or the various other black powder era bottle neck cartridges that meet the reasoning behind the separate seasons and zones in the first place. What about a sabot in a .458 case? Still good? It's good in a shotgun, so why not there?
Mostly, I think that rattling anyone's cage to try to get 'more' has a great deal of potential to cause more harm than good.
I'd far rather see a case made for doing away with separate zones and seasons.
